jcwren Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Other way around. Paper always wins. Not rock, not scissors, not spock, not lizard, not electronic copies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I will have to verify, but the last I remember hearing is that the electronic record, being the one entered directly and not copied off another source was the master record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Chuck, if you and Bill won't give up your double entry paperwork, that is certainly your choice. I am not a big fan but it is a rule. I have a feeling that they didn't do it for 574 shooters at the Handgun Nationals on a whim. I have yet to see anything that overrules 9.11.2. I read the stuff at the 2 links you posted and there was nothing negating that rule. Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarst Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Yep, paper wins. Until the rule is changed, that is the OFFICIAL copy. I agree that. in reality, the electronic copy is more accurate since another layer of error is introduced with the human copying of the summary info from the pad to the paper, but it is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I will have to verify, but the last I remember hearing is that the electronic record, being the one entered directly and not copied off another source was the master record. Other way around, as I recall from a John Amidon ruling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I am not a big fan but it is a rule. I have a feeling that they didn't do it for 574 shooters at the Handgun Nationals on a whim. There should have been a bunch more DQs then, because I saw quite a few people who, once they noticed their instant e-mails, stuffed their papers in the range bag and didn't get them out again for the rest of the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Not sure how they were doing it then. The way we run it, as learned from the Nationals, is to have the scoresheets waiting at the stages, and competitors bring their non-stage-specific competitor labels with them. First thing that happens with a new squad on the stage is to collect a label from each shooter and affix to a scoresheet, which goes on the clipboard. (Also establishes the shooting order.) Then shoot, copy the numbers from the iPad to the scoresheet, sign, give the yellow copy to the shooter, next shooter. Repeat until no more shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarst Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I will have to verify, but the last I remember hearing is that the electronic record, being the one entered directly and not copied off another source was the master record. Other way around, as I recall from a John Amidon ruling. Any way to find the content of that ruling? The NROI page at USPSA.org hasn't been updated in years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I will have to verify, but the last I remember hearing is that the electronic record, being the one entered directly and not copied off another source was the master record.Other way around, as I recall from a John Amidon ruling. Any way to find the content of that ruling? The NROI page at USPSA.org hasn't been updated in years. Just email DNROI. Better than listening to those argue about stuff they are guessing about and have not verified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarst Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Email has been sent. Will post the reply if I get an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 It will be a while...Troy is at the World shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) I will have to verify, but the last I remember hearing is that the electronic record, being the one entered directly and not copied off another source was the master record.Other way around, as I recall from a John Amidon ruling. Any way to find the content of that ruling? The NROI page at USPSA.org hasn't been updated in years. Just email DNROI. Better than listening to those argue about stuff they are guessing about and have not verified. That's always best. Even when the rulebook is as clear as it can possibly be on the subject. And I wasn't guessing. I damn well KNOW John Amidon ruled that the paper scoresheet overrides the device. However, most all his rulings have disappeared off the website. (Maybe those which were incorporated into the Feb 2014 rulebook and were therefore now redundant to list separately?) Anyway, it's a different DNROI now. Maybe this one will rule the other way. Edited October 19, 2014 by wgnoyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=203340&p=2264728 And just so we're all clear, THIS is the ultimate reason why we continue to have paper backup! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcarst Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Troy did get back about paper vs electronic. There is no ruling. Paper is definitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 There WAS a ruling by Amidon, I specifically remember it. It and a whole bunch more rulings disappeared off the webpage presumably with adoption of the Feb 2014 rulebook. But good that he got back to you and cleared this up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 I emailed DNROI as well. His answer was hinged on the notion that Practiscore does not have the capability for electronic back-up...but it most certainly does. The original "scoresheet" is where the score is first recorded, whether that be electronic or paper. Can't take a copy and say it is the original. The word "document" does not mean something that is paper with handwriting on it, which is what many have still taken it to mean. The legal definition of document is exclusive of the means of transmission. If electronic records are not acceptable, why are they included within this rule: 9.7.7 In the event that an original score sheet is lost or otherwise unavailable, the competitor’s duplicate copy, or any other written or electronic record acceptable to the Range Master, will be used. If the competitor’s copy, or any other written or electronic record, is unavailable, or is deemed by the Range Master to be insufficiently legible the competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire. If the Range Master deems that a reshoot is not possible for any reason, the competitor will incur a zero time and score for the affected course of fire. If you were to get a text or email every time you had a score entered, would you, as a competitor use that, or a handwritten sheet to check your scores? If I have 23 archived copies of the match scores that are in agreement, do you really think your handwritten paper copy is going to take precedence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) Scoring with paper back-ups Motion: To amend 9.11.2 to read: Upon approval from USPSA President, Level II or higher matches may substitute electronic backup and recovery score records for hard copy score records. Moved: A8 Seconded: A4 PASSED I was just sent this from DNROI. It is from Feb. 24, 2014 BOD minutes. http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20140224.pdf Edited November 5, 2014 by MarkCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 So if we have a way to record from device memory to a microSD card we are covered? That is good news. Hey I hate to lose a score, but Ive been doing the scores at our club for 15 years now and compared to the 'lost scores' from illegible score sheets, missing sheets, incomplete sheets, over complete sheets the few issues I've had with electronic scoring are minor. One thing, NEVER have the Nook, Ipad or what ever travel with the squad! leave it with the stage, that way the most you lose is a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Yes Jim. While I don't expect Bill to admit his error, he has been wrong about his assertions for quite a while now. Troy believes, as do I, that more work needs to be done, one of which is a best practices manual for Stats and RMs to learn the processes, audits and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcwren Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) My problem with lack of paper has to do with match reconstruction. Anyone can *always* rebuild a match from paper. Having it an electronic format requires a lot more specific knowledge. Emailing scores to competitors is great. They love it. They also, as a whole, like their paper. It's tangible. It can be easily shown. Not everyone has a smart phone, and there are more than several shooters I know that don't have phones. I also know shooters that don't bring them to matches, for reasons ranging from "no coverage" to "don't want to lose it". I'd love to remove the hand transcription process from screen to paper. A ticket printer would be simply awesome. But it'll be a long day out before I'm willing to run any L2+ match without real paper score sheets, or a local match without short-form backup sheets. I don't care what kind of provisions the rules make for not having paper backup, you won't find me working a match where there's not. I've been writing software for over 30 years, seen computers go from giant-assed mainframes to their equivalents that you can hold in your palm (or lose in your pocket), written in dozens of programming languages, under many different operating systems, using a number of different development methodologies. Regardless of my love for technology, I accept the fact that it's fallible, and that what we're doing with PS requires a certain level of knowledge that a very large number of people don't have. Any electronic system is great, when it works (which can be 99.44% of the time). But when the shit hits the fan, you better know how to recover your match. Equally importantly, you need to be able to recognize that there IS a problem. Issues can be pretty subtle, and until you go to hand out awards, you might not realize just how screwed into a corner you've gotten yourself. PractiScore rules, but paper is my ultimate safety net. Edited November 5, 2014 by jcwren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Scoring with paper back-ups Motion: To amend 9.11.2 to read: Upon approval from USPSA President, Level II or higher matches may substitute electronic backup and recovery score records for hard copy score records. Moved: A8 Seconded: A4 PASSED I was just sent this from DNROI. It is from Feb. 24, 2014 BOD minutes. http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20140224.pdf "Upon approval of the USPSA President"! You seem to be eager to ignore that small caveat. You have to seek this approval for EACH and EVERY match you wish to run this way! Otherwise, PAPER BACKUP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 ... But it'll be a long day out before I'm willing to run any L2+ match without real paper score sheets, or a local match without short-form backup sheets. I don't care what kind of provisions the rules make for not having paper backup, you won't find me working a match where there's not. ... PractiScore rules, but paper is my ultimate safety net. Abso-DAMN-LUTELY! That's the voice of experience speaking! And if there are still any naysayers, look further back up on this thread to my link to another post where a steel match was shredded and LOST because there was no paper backup! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Yes Jim. While I don't expect Bill to admit his error, he has been wrong about his assertions for quite a while now. Troy believes, as do I, that more work needs to be done, one of which is a best practices manual for Stats and RMs to learn the processes, audits and such. I've made no error here. You have to seek presidential approval for EACH MATCH in which you wish to take this extreme risk. I knew about that provision. My statements stand as correct. Without presidential approval, YOU MUST provide a hardcopy scoresheet to the competitor! And since you've made the accusation now, you now get to list the other assertions where you claim I've been wrong for quite a while now. I don't appreciate personal attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 You said paper backup were required by rule, you are wrong. Have a nice day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Scoring with paper back-ups Motion: To amend 9.11.2 to read: Upon approval from USPSA President, Level II or higher matches may substitute electronic backup and recovery score records for hard copy score records. Moved: A8 Seconded: A4 PASSED I was just sent this from DNROI. It is from Feb. 24, 2014 BOD minutes. http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20140224.pdf "Upon approval of the USPSA President"! You seem to be eager to ignore that small caveat. You have to seek this approval for EACH and EVERY match you wish to run this way! Otherwise, PAPER BACKUP! An email is easier than archaic paper backups that introduce a higher error rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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