Magnets in production

[Onagoth]

I know these are not allowed, or more specifically, magazines cannot be retained by using magnets,

but....I also shoot a lot of IPSC where they are allowed. If I have magnets on the outside of a mag pouch and do not use them, is my gear still production legal?

To say another way, do I have to remove magnets from the outside of my mag pouches if I want to shoot USPSA production?

Thanks,

Edited September 24, 2014 by Onagoth

[MaraW]

I don't think you have to remove them. People had them at production nats last year, but at least one guy went to open when he stuck a mag on there at ULSC, so just be careful if that's a habit of yours.

[Sarge]

Like you said, and per the rules,

App D4 •Each magazine must be contained individually

within the magazine pouch. Magazines may not be

retained through magnetic means.

No need to remove the magnetic pouches, just don't accidentally use one out of habit!

[GrumpyOne]

Look at it this way, leave them on...but if you drop a mag from the gun, and it sticks to the magnet, have fun in open...remember, it doesn't say that you have to use the mag attached to the magnet, only that it may not be retained magnetically...take the magnet off...

[Nimitz]

That's what makes the Safariland ELS Competition belt system so sweet. You can remove and add gear in secs without issue between different sports and everything is always in exactly the right position ..

I constantly move between open and production gear and never give it a second thought ... Best equipment decision I ever made was to switch to the ELS system this past summer ...

If you shoot multiple divisions and or disciplines its the only way to go ... One belt, setup different every day if you want ....

Edited September 25, 2014 by Nimitz

[Stan-O]

Look at it this way, leave them on...but if you drop a mag from the gun, and it sticks to the magnet, have fun in open...remember, it doesn't say that you have to use the mag attached to the magnet, only that it may not be retained magnetically...take the magnet off...

Wait, doesn't the rule only stipulate requirements prior to the start signal?

For example magazines on the table start, I have some magnets on my belt/pouches -- if I grab magazines and stick them onto magnets after the start signal I'm bumped to open in USPSA?

[BeerBaron]

That's what makes the Safariland ELS Competition belt system so sweet. You can remove and add gear in secs without issue between different sports and everything is always in exactly the right position ..

I constantly move between open and production gear and never give it a second thought ... Best equipment decision I ever made was to switch to the ELS system this past summer ...

If you shoot multiple divisions and or disciplines its the only way to go ... One belt, setup different every day if you want ....

why not just buy a second belt? belts are cheap. if you want different pouches etc anyway, it makes sense to have a production rig setup for the productoin rules and have an open rig for open. especially since often mags will be different and gun will be different.

I share a rig between productoin and single stack and have a dedicated open rig as it's so different.

what I don't like about the ELS is having the extra attachments and not being able to use the double alpha mag pocuhes which are the bees knees.

I shoot IPSC so can use a race holster and magent in production still has to be behind the hip bone etc.

I run 5 DAA racer pouches (magnet on front pouch), DAA race master holster with CZ insert for productoin. for single stack I slap in the single stack inserts to the mag pouches, slap in the 1911 insert in the holster and it's good to go.

I used to share the open rig with production and just run in open with my gear in production legal positions (so as to keep things simple).

I now run an open only rig with DAA race master pouches (again 5 with magnet on front pouch) and manny bragg holster. this rig has had holster and mag pouches creep forward a little but not right in front like most open shooters have so it's still very close to my production and single stack rig.

shame you can't run the magnet in USPSA but given the rules it's probably worth having a way to at least swap out that front pouch when playing that brand of game. not much fun shooting open minor with a production gun!

[BeerBaron]

Look at it this way, leave them on...but if you drop a mag from the gun, and it sticks to the magnet, have fun in open...remember, it doesn't say that you have to use the mag attached to the magnet, only that it may not be retained magnetically...take the magnet off...

Wait, doesn't the rule only stipulate requirements prior to the start signal?

For example magazines on the table start, I have some magnets on my belt/pouches -- if I grab magazines and stick them onto magnets after the start signal I'm bumped to open in USPSA?

the rule in IPSC (which allows magnet as pouches but stipulates gear must be behind the hip "At the start signal") is once buzzer goes off you can grab mags and stick to a magnet that is infront of the hip as it's after the start sighnal. you onlu have to be divisionally compliant "at the start signal'. not sure on USPSA. better check the rule book. there are quite a few differences.

[Sarge]

Look at it this way, leave them on...but if you drop a mag from the gun, and it sticks to the magnet, have fun in open...remember, it doesn't say that you have to use the mag attached to the magnet, only that it may not be retained magnetically...take the magnet off...

Wait, doesn't the rule only stipulate requirements prior to the start signal?

For example magazines on the table start, I have some magnets on my belt/pouches -- if I grab magazines and stick them onto magnets after the start signal I'm bumped to open in USPSA?

the rule in IPSC (which allows magnet as pouches but stipulates gear must be behind the hip "At the start signal") is once buzzer goes off you can grab mags and stick to a magnet that is infront of the hip as it's after the start sighnal. you onlu have to be divisionally compliant "at the start signal'. not sure on USPSA. better check the rule book. there are quite a few differences.

Uspsa no magnets

[Onagoth]

Look at it this way, leave them on...but if you drop a mag from the gun, and it sticks to the magnet, have fun in open...remember, it doesn't say that you have to use the mag attached to the magnet, only that it may not be retained magnetically...take the magnet off...

Wait, doesn't the rule only stipulate requirements prior to the start signal?

For example magazines on the table start, I have some magnets on my belt/pouches -- if I grab magazines and stick them onto magnets after the start signal I'm bumped to open in USPSA?

the rule in IPSC (which allows magnet as pouches but stipulates gear must be behind the hip "At the start signal") is once buzzer goes off you can grab mags and stick to a magnet that is infront of the hip as it's after the start sighnal. you onlu have to be divisionally compliant "at the start signal'. not sure on USPSA. better check the rule book. there are quite a few differences.

yeah...but nobody is going to move a mag pouch after the start signal. If it is in front of the hip bone when you start, you're in open.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Onagoth

[JAFO]

Look at it this way, leave them on...but if you drop a mag from the gun, and it sticks to the magnet, have fun in open...remember, it doesn't say that you have to use the mag attached to the magnet, only that it may not be retained magnetically...take the magnet off...

Wait, doesn't the rule only stipulate requirements prior to the start signal?

For example magazines on the table start, I have some magnets on my belt/pouches -- if I grab magazines and stick them onto magnets after the start signal I'm bumped to open in USPSA?

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, other-wise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

The underlined above restricts you to Division requirements during the CoF. As App D4 simply states that magazines may not be retained through magnetic means, you cannot use them at all during the CoF.

Edited September 26, 2014 by JAFO

[Nimitz]

That's what makes the Safariland ELS Competition belt system so sweet. You can remove and add gear in secs without issue between different sports and everything is always in exactly the right position ..

I constantly move between open and production gear and never give it a second thought ... Best equipment decision I ever made was to switch to the ELS system this past summer ...

If you shoot multiple divisions and or disciplines its the only way to go ... One belt, setup different every day if you want ....

what I don't like about the ELS is having the extra attachments and not being able to use the double alpha mag pocuhes which are the bees knees.

!

What extra attachments? I have over 20 different 'things' to attach on my belt between Production, Steel Challenge Rimfire open, Steel Challenge center fire open and 3-gun Tac Ops ... Every single one is attached with just an ELS 34 clip fork and they all slide in and out of the ELS 35 receiver plates which are attached all over the belt. It's the most straight forward, cleanest equipment arrangement imaginable .... One belt, 4 different competition setups ...

[Sarge]

That's what makes the Safariland ELS Competition belt system so sweet. You can remove and add gear in secs without issue between different sports and everything is always in exactly the right position ..

I constantly move between open and production gear and never give it a second thought ... Best equipment decision I ever made was to switch to the ELS system this past summer ...

If you shoot multiple divisions and or disciplines its the only way to go ... One belt, setup different every day if you want ....

what I don't like about the ELS is having the extra attachments and not being able to use the double alpha mag pocuhes which are the bees knees.

!

What extra attachments? I have over 20 different 'things' to attach on my belt between Production, Steel Challenge Rimfire open, Steel Challenge center fire open and 3-gun Tac Ops ... Every single one is attached with just an ELS 34 clip fork and they all slide in and out of the ELS 35 receiver plates which are attached all over the belt. It's the most straight forward, cleanest equipment arrangement imaginable .... One belt, 4 different competition setups ...

Jack of all trades so to speak?

And master of none perhaps?

[terrydoc]

Sorry BeerBaron you are wrong all of your gear must be compliant if you are shooting Std Cls or Prod your magnets or pouches must be behind the hip and within 50mm if you're using it or not.

IPSC Rulebook

5.2.10

In some Divisions (see Appendix D), neither the handgun, nor any of its attachments, nor the holster, nor any

allied equipment, can extend forward of the line illustrated in Appendix E2. Any such items a Range Officer

deems not to be in compliance must be safely and promptly adjusted, failing which Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply.

" the rule in IPSC (which allows magnet as pouches but stipulates gear must be behind the hip "At the start signal") is once buzzer goes off you can grab mags and stick to a magnet that is infront of the hip as it's after the start sighnal. you onlu have to be divisionally compliant "at the start signal'. not sure on USPSA. better check the rule book. there are quite a few differences. "

Edited September 27, 2014 by terrydoc

[terrydoc]

If you are talking Open division it doesn't matter if they are std magazine pouches or magnetic they can be forward of the hip but still must be within 50mm.

[Nimitz]

That's what makes the Safariland ELS Competition belt system so sweet. You can remove and add gear in secs without issue between different sports and everything is always in exactly the right position ..

I constantly move between open and production gear and never give it a second thought ... Best equipment decision I ever made was to switch to the ELS system this past summer ...

If you shoot multiple divisions and or disciplines its the only way to go ... One belt, setup different every day if you want ....

what I don't like about the ELS is having the extra attachments and not being able to use the double alpha mag pocuhes which are the bees knees.

!

What extra attachments? I have over 20 different 'things' to attach on my belt between Production, Steel Challenge Rimfire open, Steel Challenge center fire open and 3-gun Tac Ops ... Every single one is attached with just an ELS 34 clip fork and they all slide in and out of the ELS 35 receiver plates which are attached all over the belt. It's the most straight forward, cleanest equipment arrangement imaginable .... One belt, 4 different competition setups ...

Jack of all trades so to speak?

And master of none perhaps?

That's one way to look at it .... Here's another:

I shoot 3-gun simply to have fun ... No other reason, I don't train for it ever. I just show up to matches 1 day/month and shoot. One of the people who coaches me from time to time asked me a while ago if I ever just shot for fun. After thinking about it, the answer was 'no'. I started shooting 3-gun shortly thereafter.

He also recommended I start shooting Steel Challenge open as one technique to learn to shoot faster. As I got into it I became good fairly quickly and really enjoyed it so I bought an STI so I could shoot both open rimfire and centerfire divisions. I actually don't start serious SC training until about 3-4 months before the Nationals.

I still spend most of my 15 training days a month on USPSA Production but have found that SC has made me a better USPSA shooter

[Nik Habicht]

Nimitz,

if you ever have a chance to try shooting a Bianchi match or three, do it just for fun. I learned more about shooting -- and by that I simply mean the act of placing bullets accurately on a target under time pressure -- from a few Bianchi matches, than I did from years of practicing for USPSA.....

It helped on steel, on movers, on static paper -- and oddly since you don't do it in Bianchi in shooting on the move.....

Ad it was fun. Not fun for me like USPSA but fun......

[Nimitz]

Interesting .... I've never heard anyone around here talk about it so I don't know if ther is any nearby ... What kind of divisions do the have? Can I shoot my Production Shadow or my STI Seelmaster?

[Nik Habicht]

They've got their own versions of Open, Limited, and Production......

You should be able to find a division that your gun is legal in. Essentially every stage is fixed time -- you fire 1,2,3, or 6 rounds in a specified amount of time from the holster.

That doesn't sound anything like what we do in USPSA -- but it's the cats meow for learning about the shooting. It was mind blowing the first time that I shot the plates, to realize that Brian -- after cleaning the rack twice at 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards already, went on to fire another 450 some odd rounds on the rack at 25 yards before missing the year he set the record at Bianchi.....

A full match is 192 rounds, 48 each on the mover, barricade, practical and plate events. You'll shoot at distance out to 50 yards on the practical, to 35 yards on the barricade, and to 25 yards on mover and plates.

I'd shoot the match in Open with my production gun, if necessary -- as I don't care a lot about being competitive with others. Bianchi matches were more about assessing where I was in comparison to myself at an earlier time, and to see what I could notice and learn about shooting. I probably wouldn't want to shoot it every month, but it would be fun a few months a year.....