9mm OAL randomness

[galt11]

I am having an issue with bullets either falling into the cases and/or very random seating depths. I have tried all I can think of, but am hoping I am missing something simple. So I am hoping there is someone out there who may have run into this issue and found a solution.

First, the info on what equipment I am using:

• Dillon 650
• EGW u die, Dillon powder measure, Hornady micrometer seating die, Lee factory crimp die
• Zero 9mm 147 JHP bullets
• random range brass -> as this is what I will be using to shoot matches and practice with.

This is the second toolhead setup I have run into this issue with. The first is identical except for a Dillon seating die. I called Dillon and they suggested to INCREASE the bell. To me this sounds counter-intuitive, increasing the bell should allow the bullet to fall farther into the case before it hits a spot tight enough to hold the bullet.

I measured the ID of the sized cases and they are right at .355. The U die is setup per the included directions, which say got all the way down till it touches the shellplate. The bullets were measured at random and come in right at .355.

The bell I set originally didn't seem too excessive. It just starts to open the top hair of the case mouth a bit.

This is really driving me crazy. Please let me know what you suggest. I can post pics or take measurements as needed. Thanks

Adam

[PhotoRecon]

I'm using a plain RCBS carbide die just touching the shellholder and my internal case diameter on 9mm is .350".

My guess is your cases are being sized enough.

[chuckols]

Adam:

I have been reloading only for 17 months on my Dillon 550B but I have canned 21,000 rounds: heavy on 9mm and 40 and light on 45 and 357 SIG. The problems you mentioned on the " Zero 9mm 147 JHP bullets" were what I encountered when I tried to use the normal 115 gr 9mm on the 357Sig case. The bottle neck case is a real dozie to resize and crimp properly because you don't have much straight side wall to work with and still get the OAL down to the specs -in this case of 1.140". The point here is that it took a bullet especially made for 357SIG use(std 9mm's wont cut it). I found an inexpensive solution to be a Berry special 357 bullet that has a hollowed out interior from the base to enable them to provide a longer straight side as a % of the total bullet length so you can get the OAL down to spec and still have enough straight side to provide for tension of the crimp-that holds the bullet in place and prevents bullet from falling/or being pushed into the case.

Long story short- and I think it relates to your issue-if you have no problem with your system and brass on 9mm except the 147 grain you mentioned then I would suspect the bullet geometry is putting you into a very small zone of application that requires the right resizing AND crimp to ensure good bullet retention. Try switching -using all your standard setting etc., -to any other grain 9mm, the heavier the better as the heavier bullets get a bit longer and edge one into this "straight wall" zone to which I refer.

Probably telling you more then I know but that's how I saw and resolved my SIG issue and now with the right bullet in stock I find the SIG is no more difficult than any other round I have tackled.

OH yes, I nearly forgot. It was critical that I bell the case NO MORE than I absolutely needed to set the bullet by hand for the #3 die to set the OAL desired. Over belling got me back into TROUBLE on "fall through" and "push back". The "kerplunk" test keeps you from under crimping as it warns you of chambering issues from that regard.

Luck,

Chuck

Edited August 6, 2014 by chuckols

[kneelingatlas]

have you tried different bullets? or measured the ones you have?

[Hi-Power Jack]

Try switching -using all your standard setting etc., -to any other grain 9mm

Trying a different bullet seems like the easiest beginning to

what sounds like it could be a long journey.

So many possibilities - any photos of your "bell"?

[RangeHooligan]

galt11, is this issue happening with all the rounds that you are loading or just an occasional round? You mentioned you are using random range brass, so is it possible that some of the brass you have collected is unable to be properly resized due to previous overuse and or abuse? Have you tried loading with new or once fired brass?

RH

[bowenbuilt]

.355 ID + .355 bullet diameter = NO CASE NECK TENSION. Your sizing die is out of spec., send it back and get a corrected sizing die.

[racerba]

You are talking about OAL right? what is your variance? I load to 1.12 and I get plus.minus 0.02 on average. an occasional plus/minus 0.03 and sometimes even 0.04.

[ffries61]

You are talking about OAL right? what is your variance? I load to 1.12 and I get plus.minus 0.02 on average. an occasional plus/minus 0.03 and sometimes even 0.04.

02" to .04" ?? sounds pretty excessive, especially if you're loading 9mm, that much variance will really effect pressure, I never get more than .005" variation with my 550B, did you move the decimal point one spot to the right ?

[vinceislander]

You are talking about OAL right? what is your variance? I load to 1.12 and I get plus.minus 0.02 on average. an occasional plus/minus 0.03 and sometimes even 0.04.

02" to .04" ?? sounds pretty excessive, especially if you're loading 9mm, that much variance will really effect pressure, I never get more than .005" variation with my 550B, did you move the decimal point one spot to the right ?

I bet he meant to post 0.002" - 0.004". In my experience, the first and last rounds are off by 0.002", round in between deviate by no more than 0.001".

For the OP, I suggest taking a sized case minus a new primer and try to seat a round in the case by hand. If it goes into the case, then your sizer die is not doing its job. The belling is to assist with keeping the bullet in the case until it is seated. The crimper is used to remove the belling and NOT intended to "hold" the bullet in its place. That's the job of the case after it has been sized properly.

I agree with bowenbuilt, it is likely your EGW die. My CZs have tight chambers and I use Dillion dies with mixed range pick up brass. Never had a failure related to case out of spec and no bullet setbacks after chambering multiple times. I don't bell more than necessary it is just to keep the bullet from falling out of the case and I barely crimp.

Good luck.

[jmorris]

.355 ID + .355 bullet diameter = NO CASE NECK TENSION. Your sizing die is out of spec., send it back and get a corrected sizing die.

What he said. If you press check (put them nose down in a box and push on the base) do they move? It they do, they will when they hit the ramp going into the barrel and could give you very bad things, when your 1.140" goes to .960 or who knows. I wouldn't shoot them.

I agree with the last two posts two to four thousands in OAL is not in heard of, twenty to forty thousandths is a sign of a problem for sure. 10x's the amount of variation, in other words.

Edited August 7, 2014 by jmorris

[racerba]

You are talking about OAL right? what is your variance? I load to 1.12 and I get plus.minus 0.02 on average. an occasional plus/minus 0.03 and sometimes even 0.04.

02" to .04" ?? sounds pretty excessive, especially if you're loading 9mm, that much variance will really effect pressure, I never get more than .005" variation with my 550B, did you move the decimal point one spot to the right ?

yes, my bad - 0.002 to 0.004

[dauntedfuture]

In general, when I have an issue with loaded rounds for some reason, I attempt to identify what step of phase of the process is giving me trouble. When I set up a run of pistol, I will gauge a few sized cases to make sure the die is set up correctly. Provided that's good, ill try a little belling is ok. If your powder mechanism is too far down, it will mess up things too, especially on rifle where it can collapse and bulge the shoulder. Bullets should have tension going into the case and enough of a bell, but not too much. I long ago learned that a separate seating die and crimp make your life easier and that lee factory crimp dies are quite good. They "crimp" and squeeze the whole case a little but and I had many fewer rejects. I experienced an oversized lee .38 super die a while ago, lee sent me another one for .355 bullets as their normal one is for .356. Provided all that's good ill test with seated bullets and make sure everything else is good to go. I have no experience with PD 147 JHPs but I like their FMJ 147's.

Edited August 7, 2014 by dauntedfuture

[anm2_man]

Since the OP reported that his inside dia is .355", that so wrong. I use a 650, have a U-Die for sizing and my cases are Range pickups and I get between .330" to .340" ID on my cases. This measurement is taken 1/2 way down the case.

There has got to be a problem with his U-Die.