ss+P Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 here is the question: Can I use a magnetic means of securing my mag to my person before the buzzer goes off? I have a friend who shoots open and is going to shoot production in an upcoming match. he has a magnetic holder that he wants to use to Make Ready with. Appendix D4 Section 20 says that magazines may not be held in place by a magnetic source, or something like that. This is kind of like the "production can't load from front pocket b/c mag is in front of hip bone" kind of question, In my opinion. could he use it before the buzzer and he is fine as long as he doesn't use it during the actual shooting portion of the stage. My advice to him was just take it off to be on the safe side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
de03x7 Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Appendix D4 20 says Each magazine must be contained individually within the magazine pouch. Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means. 5.2.4 allowes for a magazine to come out of a front pocket when loading/unloading but does not allow for a magnet. My call would be open division if the magnet was used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 I agree they are different situations addressed differently in the rules. My understanding is NO MAGNETS, Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss+P Posted July 25, 2014 Author Share Posted July 25, 2014 De03x7 didn't see the other part of the rule. Good find. I agree. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 My take is different. As long as the magnet is not used after the start signal I don't think it is of any concern. 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Since that specifically says after the start signal I don't care how he got that mag to the start, as long as an illegal retention device is not used after the start signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) Why not just carry the start mag in his hand and avoid the conversation? Edited July 25, 2014 by b1gcountry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 My take is different. As long as the magnet is not used after the start signal I don't think it is of any concern. 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Since that specifically says after the start signal I don't care how he got that mag to the start, as long as an illegal retention device is not used after the start signal. Since Appendix D4 spells out authorized equipment for Production division, and specifically prohibits magazines being retained by magnets, I would bump you to Open division, After the start signal has nothing to do with it. Retaining a magazine by a magnet on your belt is NOT allowed in Production, whether before the start signal or after it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 So if I am on deck and i happen to handle a magazine with 12 rounds in it do I also get bumped from Production to Open? My take is that if the shooter is not retaining a magazine using that magnet "during the course of fire" then I don't care that an empty magnet is on his belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Using over-capacity magazines isn't really a fair comparison, as it's been determined that you could have that 12-round mag on your belt as long as you don't use it during the course of fire. But equipment rules are routinely enforced outside of the course of fire. A good example is being asked to fix holster/mag pouch position. If you attended a match that had table starts on every stage, but you wore a speed holster and were signed up for Production, don't you think you'd get bumped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 So if I am on deck and i happen to handle a magazine with 12 rounds in it do I also get bumped from Production to Open? My take is that if the shooter is not retaining a magazine using that magnet "during the course of fire" then I don't care that an empty magnet is on his belt. O.k., so in your opinion division rules only apply during the COF. Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 So if I am on deck and i happen to handle a magazine with 12 rounds in it do I also get bumped from Production to Open? My take is that if the shooter is not retaining a magazine using that magnet "during the course of fire" then I don't care that an empty magnet is on his belt. O.k., so in your opinion division rules only apply during the COF. Got it. More specifically after the start signal on this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Use the search function. The BOD has already ruled on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Thanks, RJH. From: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=177289 There is nothing in the rules stating you cannot have on e on your belt, only that you cannot use it in Production and Single Stack divisions.John I was right! I'm marking this week on my calendar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Thanks, RJH. From: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=177289 There is nothing in the rules stating you cannot have on e on your belt, only that you cannot use it in Production and Single Stack divisions.John I was right! I'm marking this week on my calendar. Sort of. I see this as pretty much equivalent to having your holster shift too far forward between stages..... If I see that before I give you make ready, I;ll ask you to adjust it to the proper position...... If I see a mag on a magnet -- some thing. I don't care what happens between stages, and you're allowed to have a magnet on your belt. If however you have a mag attached to the magnet anytime between "make ready" and "Range is Clear" I'll need to move you to Open Division..... So, it's just not a terrific idea to have a magnet on your belt if you shoot a division with that restriction..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 My opinion is I could care less where the make ready mag comes from for make ready. I guess it goes back to common sence like how we had to get the front pocket allowed for storing the mag for make ready and after you shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 If the magnet is attached to the belt forward of the hip bone in Production and/or Single Stack, does that make a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelDown Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 If the magnet is attached to the belt forward of the hip bone in Production and/or Single Stack, does that make a difference? If the magnet is not used to retain a magazine during the course of fire how is this any different than any other unspecified gear that may be on the belt? Division rules specify where the gun and magazines must be but not any other accessory gear like ear muff holders, flashlights, cell phone holders or any other thing you may want to have on your belt. Admittedly carrying all that stuff in front may be a distraction but it is not prohibited. The magnet is just another piece of non-specified gear at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Is the magnet equipment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Is the magnet equipment? It is if there's a mag attached to it, regardless of position..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 True but looking for more. Scenario: L-10 shooter who uses his Single Stack and 10 round magazines. He also uses a magnet located forward of the hip bone probably around the center line. Now he decides to try Single Stack, obtains legal magazines, but leaves the empty magnet in its normal location. Is there a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I don't see an issue with it. I view it the same as the front pocket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 (edited) Doesn't the rulebook require all equipment to be behind the forward point of the hip bone? Is there a NROI ruling that exempts magnets? Edited August 2, 2014 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Doesn't the rulebook require all equipment to be behind the forward point of the hip bone? Is there a NROI ruling that exempts magnets? If you check Chapter 5, equipment includes holsters and mag pouches.... Appendix D5 requires that equipment be behind the hip..... Appendix D5 item 20 states: Each magazine must be contained individually within the magazine pouch. Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means. Ergo, an empty magnet is not a mag pouch, and is not equipment. Maybe it's there for the shooter's health..... As long as it's not used to hold a gun, mag, speed loader, or moon clip (Revos can play in PD) I don't care that it's there. Compete in Production or SS and slap a mag, etc. there during the course of fire, and it's welcome to Open. That would be my logic if I were the RM..... You used to teach this stuff -- how'd I do? (I realize the opinion's not official....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Appendix E 3 describes where equipment must be in Production and Single Stack. IMO, a magnet is equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Appendix E 3 describes where equipment must be in Production and Single Stack. IMO, a magnet is equipment. Equipment to do what, exactly? Especially in the presence of a prohibition on using magnetic retention of mags...... What if I tell you it's a rare earth magnet I wear for my health? If I have an empty multi tool pouch or a shotshell holder in the same position, does your opinion change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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