"Gaming" 3gunnation?`

[DocMedic]

So I've seen a lot of pistol starts with magazine in but no round chambered. I wonder why these are not more popular

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUme2TjUJkU

Edited June 6, 2014 by DocMedic

[Flatland Shooter]

Safariland or someone made the same thing as a duty holster for 1911's back around 1982.

Don't know why they never caught on.

Bill

[bigkyle72]

So I've seen a lot of pistol starts with magazine in but no round chambered. I wonder why these are not more popular

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUme2TjUJkU

Who makes that one?

[Bryan 45]

Safariland or someone made the same thing as a duty holster for 1911's back around 1982.

Don't know why they never caught on.

Bill

Because there is no reason to carry a gun that's not ready to go?

[alma]

Cool idea. I see lots of empty chamber starts. A lot of the top guys and girls are shooting a pistol with an external hammer.

I am not sure that would work on a gun with an external hammer due to the position of the strap.

Would be interesting for Glock/M&P.

[Alaskapopo]

Safariland or someone made the same thing as a duty holster for 1911's back around 1982.

Don't know why they never caught on.

Bill

Because there is no reason to carry a gun that's not ready to go?

Agreed I hate empty chamber starts I am not Israeli.

[mulrick]

Safariland or someone made the same thing as a duty holster for 1911's back around 1982.

Don't know why they never caught on.

Bill

Because there is no reason to carry a gun that's not ready to go?

Agreed I hate empty chamber starts I am not Israeli.

Not just Israeli, MP's on base used to carry C3.

[Tim/GA]

Good reason for them(by them I mean empty chamber starts) in 3 gun. First time I was able to look down the muzzle of a Glock twice and it spun to the ground gave me 2 thoughts. 1, I see why some use none in the chamber if the pistol is not the first gun used and 2, holster with retention in 3 gun just may be a great idea!

In this case the shooter had his regular non-retention holster tightened down a lot but as he brought the muzzle of his shotgun up/butt down to clear a wall the soft recoil pad grabbed the rear sight of the Glock and when he re-mounted the shotgun on the other side of the wall the pistol went flipping.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Tim/GA

[mr50mag]

This guy gets it. Just one of the few reasons we use this condition for pistols.

Good reason for them(by them I mean empty chamber starts) in 3 gun. First time I was able to look down the muzzle of a Glock twice and it spun to the ground gave me 2 thoughts. 1, I see why some use none in the chamber if the pistol is not the first gun used and 2, holster with retention in 3 gun just may be a great idea!In this case the shooter had his regular non-retention holster tightened down a lot but as he brought the muzzle of his shotgun up/butt down to clear a wall the soft recoil pad grabbed the rear sight of the Glock and when he re-mounted the shotgun on the other side of the wall the pistol went flipping.

[openclassterror]

Number one reason for empty chamber starts is the possibility of the shooter going prone with rifle or shotgun, prior to use of the pistol. At Ironman, prone with a hot pistol is a DQ. 3GN adopted the same rule for 2014. If you use the pistol and choose to go prone later in the course of fire without abandoning the pistol, it must be fully cleared before going prone. Some of the stage ROs at Ironman were allowing competitors to lay the pistol down (muzzle down range) prior to going prone, but I don't quite know how I feel about that. I personally wouldn't lay my pistol in the dirt just so I could maybe use it later.

[alma]

Number one reason for empty chamber starts is the possibility of the shooter going prone with rifle or shotgun, prior to use of the pistol. At Ironman, prone with a hot pistol is a DQ. 3GN adopted the same rule for 2014. If you use the pistol and choose to go prone later in the course of fire without abandoning the pistol, it must be fully cleared before going prone. Some of the stage ROs at Ironman were allowing competitors to lay the pistol down (muzzle down range) prior to going prone, but I don't quite know how I feel about that. I personally wouldn't lay my pistol in the dirt just so I could maybe use it later.

I am shooting a lot at a club that's follows FNH rules. It seems like empty chamber starts are the norm.

[Alaskapopo]

I don't like empty chamber holster starts because it gives you bad muscle memory. I know this is a game but what we do in the game can translate to what we do in real life so I want no part of this bad habit.

Pat

[openclassterror]

I'm with you on that Pat. Can't tell you how many times in the last year I have HAD a hot pistol start, and the first thing I do is draw and rack a live round onto the ground. NOT a good habit to get into. Granted, I don't rely on a sidearm to keep me alive on a daily basis as you do, but if I ever do need to use my carry pistol, that is a half second and a bullet that I may need to stay alive. I think it is mostly a concession made to allow more stage designs (IE rifle first but still a pistol section). I think a better plan would be to just say "If you intend to go prone, you MUST have an empty pistol chamber prior to that point". DQ for a 180 break if you fail to comply. Leave it at that.

Tom

[Vlad]

I have the opposite problem, I'm so used to USPSA hot draws, that when I shoot empty chamber 3gun I almost always forget to rack my slide.

[DocMedic]

I don't like empty chamber holster starts because it gives you bad muscle memory. I know this is a game but what we do in the game can translate to what we do in real life so I want no part of this bad habit.

Pat

If real life had me shoot 15 badguys in one course of action i would agree. However it is my humble opinion "when shit gets real" You'll remember your real training and not what you do for a game.

[Alaskapopo]

I don't like empty chamber holster starts because it gives you bad muscle memory. I know this is a game but what we do in the game can translate to what we do in real life so I want no part of this bad habit.

Pat

If real life had me shoot 15 badguys in one course of action i would agree. However it is my humble opinion "when shit gets real" You'll remember your real training and not what you do for a game.

I disagree if your prepared to shoot at 15 bad guys great. Training should be made harder than any shooting challenge your likely to face in a real gun fight so its not a surprise to you.However drawing and racking as a matter of habit on most stages will leave you with training scars. Drawing and firing your weapon is not something you remember its programmed. The only thinking involved is the decision to shoot or not. If you program yourself to rack the slide when you draw that is what you will do when the crap hits the fan.

Pat

Edited June 16, 2014 by Alaskapopo

[Alaskapopo]

I'm with you on that Pat. Can't tell you how many times in the last year I have HAD a hot pistol start, and the first thing I do is draw and rack a live round onto the ground. NOT a good habit to get into. Granted, I don't rely on a sidearm to keep me alive on a daily basis as you do, but if I ever do need to use my carry pistol, that is a half second and a bullet that I may need to stay alive. I think it is mostly a concession made to allow more stage designs (IE rifle first but still a pistol section). I think a better plan would be to just say "If you intend to go prone, you MUST have an empty pistol chamber prior to that point". DQ for a 180 break if you fail to comply. Leave it at that.

Tom

I agree or simple don't design a stage where a competitor has to go prone with a holstered pistol.

[CJW]

I agree or simple don't design a stage where a competitor has to go prone with a holstered pistol.

I would say that's a bit easier said than done, since the trend these days (and a good one, I think) is to give the shooter some flexibility in engagement order and which gun to use with which targets. At the Tarheel 3-Gun Challenge they allowed you to ready and holster the pistol hot, but gave the option of holstering empty chamber; additionally, each RO pointed out the DQ penalty for going prone with a chambered pistol, so there was a definite reminder to the shooter to think through his choices. I think that is a good approach.

For the rest of the time, I am okay with the reasonably standardized start of first gun hot chamber, other guns empty chamber. I'd say more than 80% of the stages I shoot (local or bigger matches) fit that pattern, and it seems to work just fine.

Edited June 16, 2014 by CJW

[kurtm]

Going prone with a hot pistol???? This must be one of those "it scares the women and horses" things. In the 23 years of S.O.F, witch required you wear a HOT holstered pistol on EVERY stage, never once did a pistol discharge all by it,s self in it's holster....prone or not. As long as the holster covered the trigger guard and at least 1/2 of the ejection port it was legal. They never allowed what would be considered "race holsters" and there was never a problem. We also used to ....gasp!!! hot re-holster. A pistol in a holster is as likely to go off when prone as it is put in a dump barrel with the safety off. If it isn't touched it won't be loud, but then again I am anachronistic.

Edited June 16, 2014 by kurtm

[kurtm]

Doubled down

Edited June 16, 2014 by kurtm

[J.Schmitt]

I don't like empty chamber holster starts because it gives you bad muscle memory. I know this is a game but what we do in the game can translate to what we do in real life so I want no part of this bad habit.

Pat

If real life had me shoot 15 badguys in one course of action i would agree. However it is my humble opinion "when shit gets real" You'll remember your real training and not what you do for a game.[/quote

I like to train as I'm chasing 1 guy who's dodging me and I'm filling him full with 30 rounds.

I also don't like empty starts, an while I shoot a different gun in competition I use the same safariland duty holster.

Jay

[Bryan 45]

While it is a safety concern, it's a SAFE HOLSTER concern, not a safe gun concern. Not just w/ this issue, but with others as well- I think the pursuit of speed has the unintended consequence of some shooters marginalizing safety. Which is unacceptable in my opinion.

Kurt- did SOF require holsters w/ retention?

[alma]

It seems like with the empty chamber starts there is now more leeway with unsafe gun handling. Think about a possible time penalty for dropping a gun coming out of a holster instead of a DQ... I like that most 3 Gun matches have some sensible allowances for gun handling but there needs to be a line somewhere.

[kurtm]

No Bryan they did not require retention devices. They required your holster to retain the pistol wether friction or lock/strap durring vigorous movement.

[DocMedic]

I disagree if your prepared to shoot at 15 bad guys great. Training should be made harder than any shooting challenge your likely to face in a real gun fight so its not a surprise to you.However drawing and racking as a matter of habit on most stages will leave you with training scars...

To each their own. But when I'm not in full kit with a firearm I wear a phone holster with my phone in place of where my my pistol holster would be. I have not pulled my pistol out to answer my phone