Production USPSA questions

[ss+P]

I found some information on here saying that you could not "grind down" or "reshape" the floor plate on your magazines.

I shoot an M&P. they sell small floor plates that will fit on the magazines. does this mean that I can purchase those and still be production legal. does this mean I can "grind" or reshape my old floor plates to now.

Second question.

I have a 4.25" slide can I purchase a 5 inch slide and put it on the existing frame and still be production legal.

thanks in advance

[BritinUSA]

Ref Magazines: You should be fine, best bet is to make sure that the replacement pads are the same thickness as the originals, if they are any larger then you will need to check with the USPSA Box.

Prior restrictions on magazines have been lifted. OFM and aftermarket magazines and base-pads may be used. However, any and all magazines used in competition, must fit into the USPSA box while empty and inserted in the handgun as described in item 7 of this appendix. Grip tape and/or skate board tape are specifically allowed on magazines and base- pads.

[Sarge]

Anybody who runs an M&P in Production should be running the compact pads. They are perfectly legal. You are right that you can not grind down the original pads.

As for changing out the slide. You will get 100 answers to that one. I say you can't do it while others will say "sure you can, who would know"

[ss+P]

So I can buy compact pads but I can't alter my original pads.

I figured as much about the slide.

[Sarge]

So I can buy compact pads but I can't alter my original pads.

I figured as much about the slide.

correct. I got my compact pads direct from S&W for something like 75 cents a piece or something like that. But nowadays some are getting from aftermarket makers. Probably aluminum but in Production there is no need for pretty stuff. Just plain old ugly guns that work 100%. I would call S&W and ask for the flat pads for M&PC mags. If you don't specify they may send you the pinky extension ones.

[Sarge]

Looks like speed shooters specialties has them for 2 bucks

http://www.speedshooterspecialties.com/index.php?main_page=shopping_cart&sort=20a&page=3

[ss+P]

Sarge. Thanks buddy

[ss+P]

While we are talking about this. You can't put adjustable sights on a production gun unless they come from the factory that way. Is that correct

[kneelingatlas]

...I changed my mind, I don't know anything for sure anymore...

Edited June 4, 2014 by kneelingatlas

[ss+P]

That is how I feel sometimes.

[Sarge]

While we are talking about this. You can't put adjustable sights on a production gun unless they come from the factory that way. Is that correct

Not correct

Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, pins,

extractors and ejectors MAY be replaced with

OFM or aftermarket parts.

[BritinUSA]

While we are talking about this. You can't put adjustable sights on a production gun unless they come from the factory that way. Is that correct

The alterations you are permitted to make are all spelled put in the Production Division appendix in the rules.

[DocMedic]

...You are right that you can not grind down the original pads.

Can you please direct me to the rule the explicitly says this? Because I have cut re-shaped and re-textured mine. Who's says they're not "aftermarket"?

Edited June 4, 2014 by DocMedic

[GrumpyOne]

Can I use any after market magazine in my gun for Production? Also, may I grind off part of the base pad on my S&W M&P?

Answer:

After market magazines are allowed in Production, as long as they are dimensionally the same as the original magazine for that model gun? In other words, you may not use a Glock 33 round mag in an approved Glock gun, regardless of only loading 10 rounds in it. Grinding on the magazine base pad, would be an external modification and not allowed, the magazine when inserted, is a functioning part of the gun and the base pad is external.

quote name="DocMedic" post="2179219" timestamp="1401922121"]

...You are right that you can not grind down the original pads.

Can you please direct me to the rule the explicitly says this? Because I have cut re-shaped and re-textured mine. Who's says they're not "aftermarket"?I believe it was an NROI ruling...and wont be in the rule book, but is a real rule just the same.

Edit to add..Yep, NROI RULING...if you are gonna say they are aftermarket, you better provide a receipt and a company that makes them...

Edited June 4, 2014 by GrumpyOne

[Sarge]

It's an integrity check for sure! You can put smaller base pads on but you can't make an alteration to a stock pad.

Is it kind of goofy? Yes. But still not supported by the rules to alter.

Keep in mind the catch all rule that is quoted many times in the production appendix," if you can't find a rule allowing something then it's not legal" or words to that effect

[ss+P]

sarge i agree with your last statement. it is find of goofy that i can't shape my own, but i can buy smaller aftermarket ones that fit. i just want to make sure i am with-in the rules. don't want to be dq'd over my floor plates.

I didn't know that i could use after market adjustable sights in production. that is good news.

i have switched divisions a few times and am thinking of coming back so i just want to be up on the rules of the gun.

thanks for all the info

[ss+P]

Hey Sarge,

I saw that the part in the rules that says sights may be changed with aftermarket sights. I guess that means that they don't have to be the same style as the OFM parts. Just trying to make sure.

Do you know if the same rules apply for production division of the bianchi cup. i am looking that up now

[Sarge]

Hey Sarge,

I saw that the part in the rules that says sights may be changed with aftermarket sights. I guess that means that they don't have to be the same style as the OFM parts. Just trying to make sure.

Do you know if the same rules apply for production division of the bianchi cup. i am looking that up now

You can put any sight on a production gun. Don't have a clue about bianchi though.

[DocMedic]

Edit to add..Yep, NROI RULING...if you are gonna say they are aftermarket, you better provide a receipt and a company that makes them...

Thank you, do you happen to know the date of that ruling?

I do think its quite a bit silly seeing how it adds no benefit other than keeping a few bucks in my pocket. And should we get a ruling what "Aftermarket" means in USPSA?

[Nik Habicht]

Can I use any after market magazine in my gun for Production? Also, may I grind off part of the base pad on my S&W M&P?

Answer:

After market magazines are allowed in Production, as long as they are dimensionally the same as the original magazine for that model gun? In other words, you may not use a Glock 33 round mag in an approved Glock gun, regardless of only loading 10 rounds in it. Grinding on the magazine base pad, would be an external modification and not allowed, the magazine when inserted, is a functioning part of the gun and the base pad is external.

quote name="DocMedic" post="2179219" timestamp="1401922121"]

...You are right that you can not grind down the original pads.

Can you please direct me to the rule the explicitly says this? Because I have cut re-shaped and re-textured mine. Who's says they're not "aftermarket"?

I believe it was an NROI ruling...and wont be in the rule book, but is a real rule just the same.

Edit to add..Yep, NROI RULING...if you are gonna say they are aftermarket, you better provide a receipt and a company that makes them...

I don't agree. The ruling you quote is from August 22, 2007, and was last updated on July 31, 2008.

Since then the rules (rulebook) were updated in July 2010 with BOD approved amendments to read:

Appendix D4, item 21.7:

Prior restrictions on magazines have been lifted. OEM and aftermarket magazines and base-pads may be used. However, any and all magazines used in competition, must fit into the USPSA box while empty and inserted in the handgun as described in item 7 of this appendix. Grip tape and/or skate board tape are specifically allowed on magazines and base-pads.

If it fits the box, it's legal......

.....or should be. The final decision rests with the RM though -- you can't arbitrate the move to open.....

[Sarge]

Can I use any after market magazine in my gun for Production? Also, may I grind off part of the base pad on my S&W M&P?

Answer:

After market magazines are allowed in Production, as long as they are dimensionally the same as the original magazine for that model gun? In other words, you may not use a Glock 33 round mag in an approved Glock gun, regardless of only loading 10 rounds in it. Grinding on the magazine base pad, would be an external modification and not allowed, the magazine when inserted, is a functioning part of the gun and the base pad is external.

quote name="DocMedic" post="2179219" timestamp="1401922121"]

...You are right that you can not grind down the original pads.

Can you please direct me to the rule the explicitly says this? Because I have cut re-shaped and re-textured mine. Who's says they're not "aftermarket"?

I believe it was an NROI ruling...and wont be in the rule book, but is a real rule just the same.

Edit to add..Yep, NROI RULING...if you are gonna say they are aftermarket, you better provide a receipt and a company that makes them...

I don't agree. The ruling you quote is from August 22, 2007, and was last updated on July 31, 2008.

Since then the rules (rulebook) were updated in July 2010 with BOD approved amendments to read:

Appendix D4, item 21.7:

Prior restrictions on magazines have been lifted. OEM and aftermarket magazines and base-pads may be used. However, any and all magazines used in competition, must fit into the USPSA box while empty and inserted in the handgun as described in item 7 of this appendix. Grip tape and/or skate board tape are specifically allowed on magazines and base-pads.

If it fits the box, it's legal......

.....or should be. The final decision rests with the RM though -- you can't arbitrate the move to open.....

Right! So if you are wrong, you lose! I went through this in '09 with my base pads and was told in no uncertain terms by multiple RMI's and probably JA that I could not modify the shape of an existing pad. Since then I have not interpreted any of the updates to mean anything different. AND as long as these phrases are in app D one better be sure:

Please note that, during a match, a shooter may be

required to demonstrate that their gun is in compliance

with Division rules by identifying a specific

rules clause or published interpretation which authorizes

any disputed modification. If the shooter cannot

identify an authorizing rules-clause or published

interpretation, the RM shall rule that the modification

is PROHIBITED for Production use and shall move

the shooter to Open Division.

Please note that the absence of an item in the list of

prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to

mean a modification is allowed. A modification is

only allowed in Production Division if there is a rules

clause or interpretation which specifically declares

that it is allowed in the Division.

Special conditions:

— Unless specifically authorized above, modifications are prohibited.

[Chuck Anderson]

The rule has changed since 2009. Why would information from a previous rule be relevant?

[Sarge]

The rule has changed since 2009. Why would information from a previous rule be relevant?

Agreed! But current rules don't permit reshaping base pads either.

[Nik Habicht]

The rule has changed since 2009. Why would information from a previous rule be relevant?

Agreed! But current rules don't permit reshaping base pads either.

Well, Kevin, I'm not moving you to open for reshaping your basepads, assuming that your gun makes weight and fits in the box.......

But hey, what do I know? I could learn something next week that would get me to change my mind......

[Sarge]

The rule has changed since 2009. Why would information from a previous rule be relevant?

Agreed! But current rules don't permit reshaping base pads either.

Well, Kevin, I'm not moving you to open for reshaping your basepads, assuming that your gun makes weight and fits in the box.......

But hey, what do I know? I could learn something next week that would get me to change my mind......

Nik you and I always boil things down to one thought. You wouldn't bump me but does every other RM in the country feel the same way? That is the 64,000 dollar question. Like I said, it's kind of silly not to be able to but that doesn't mean I think it's OK.

Using the current rule book, what rule do I use to justify reshaping my base pads when the RM quotes one of the above phrases from app D? I don't see a rule specifically allowing it. Sure, I see where it says mag restrictions are lifted and goes on to talk about what parts you are now allowed to put on a mag but it doesn't say I can reshape a base pad.