Sarge Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 If only that sentence said "end of a string" instead of "end of a COF"... It doesn't need to. It includes to "facilitate loading before the start signal." Kind of hard to have a second string without a start signal......RO gives the "Load for your next string" command, and I'm ok with someone dragging a mag out of the front pocket to accomplish that. If the relaod from the front pocket while the clock's running, that's a different story...... And being ok with you may mean nothing to the thousands of other RO's out there who are reading the rule book and not assuming what something means. I personally am not ok with a shooter taking a mag from their front pocket during a COF. Which seems to be supported by the rule book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcobean Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 If only that sentence said "end of a string" instead of "end of a COF"... It doesn't need to. It includes to "facilitate loading before the start signal." Kind of hard to have a second string without a start signal......RO gives the "Load for your next string" command, and I'm ok with someone dragging a mag out of the front pocket to accomplish that. If the relaod from the front pocket while the clock's running, that's a different story...... And being ok with you may mean nothing to the thousands of other RO's out there who are reading the rule book and not assuming what something means. I personally am not ok with a shooter taking a mag from their front pocket during a COF. Which seems to be supported by the rule book What about 8.3.6.1 "Reload if required"? If the rulebook accommodates reloading during a multi-string course does that not allow for use of a barney mag in a front pocket. There is no competitive advantage gained by doing this, is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 I love rules discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 I love rules discussions. Same here! My favorite part of the forums. More often than not they are an exercise in futility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 If only that sentence said "end of a string" instead of "end of a COF"... It doesn't need to. It includes to "facilitate loading before the start signal." Kind of hard to have a second string without a start signal......RO gives the "Load for your next string" command, and I'm ok with someone dragging a mag out of the front pocket to accomplish that. If the relaod from the front pocket while the clock's running, that's a different story...... And being ok with you may mean nothing to the thousands of other RO's out there who are reading the rule book and not assuming what something means. I personally am not ok with a shooter taking a mag from their front pocket during a COF. Which seems to be supported by the rule book What about 8.3.6.1 "Reload if required"? If the rulebook accommodates reloading during a multi-string course does that not allow for use of a barney mag in a front pocket. There is no competitive advantage gained by doing this, is there? none whatsoever. But there are other rules that say it can't be done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcobean Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 If only that sentence said "end of a string" instead of "end of a COF"... It doesn't need to. It includes to "facilitate loading before the start signal." Kind of hard to have a second string without a start signal......RO gives the "Load for your next string" command, and I'm ok with someone dragging a mag out of the front pocket to accomplish that. If the relaod from the front pocket while the clock's running, that's a different story...... And being ok with you may mean nothing to the thousands of other RO's out there who are reading the rule book and not assuming what something means. I personally am not ok with a shooter taking a mag from their front pocket during a COF. Which seems to be supported by the rule book What about 8.3.6.1 "Reload if required"? If the rulebook accommodates reloading during a multi-string course does that not allow for use of a barney mag in a front pocket. There is no competitive advantage gained by doing this, is there? none whatsoever. But there are other rules that say it can't be done What would those rules be? I can't find anything explicitly that allows or disallows the use of a barney mag during a multi-string stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcobean Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 I love rules discussions. Same here! My favorite part of the forums. More often than not they are an exercise in futility I enjoy civil discourse about things like this. I think it helps us all become better ROs and CROs just by getting perspective and views from different angles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 A multi string stages ends at if clear hammer down or prepare for your next string. So refilling your belt with mags carried in an apparel pocket is permissible. My reasoning for that is that each string has its own start signal which is the official start of a COF. You cannot start a new string unless the prior one has ended, hence the COF has ended for that string. No. A COF ends with Range is clear. Strings are not mini courses of fire by any definition other than yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 If only that sentence said "end of a string" instead of "end of a COF"... It doesn't need to. It includes to "facilitate loading before the start signal." Kind of hard to have a second string without a start signal......RO gives the "Load for your next string" command, and I'm ok with someone dragging a mag out of the front pocket to accomplish that. If the relaod from the front pocket while the clock's running, that's a different story...... And being ok with you may mean nothing to the thousands of other RO's out there who are reading the rule book and not assuming what something means. I personally am not ok with a shooter taking a mag from their front pocket during a COF. Which seems to be supported by the rule book What about 8.3.6.1 "Reload if required"? If the rulebook accommodates reloading during a multi-string course does that not allow for use of a barney mag in a front pocket. There is no competitive advantage gained by doing this, is there? none whatsoever. But there are other rules that say it can't be done What would those rules be? I can't find anything explicitly that allows or disallows the use of a barney mag during a multi-string stage. One more time. 5.2.4 Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “ if clear, hammer down and holster”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 In which case I would tell the RO to issue ICHDH at the end of every string. Now according to the rules I can retrieve a magazine from my front pocket for the next string. I am being a because I myself carry enough to shoot all strings on my belt, but for the purposes of discussion feel that pulling mags out of a front pocket to replenish your belt or top off another mag is permissible between strings even without the words ICHDH being issued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 It is unfortunate that sometimes the rules have to be very literal. The thought that came to mind after my last post is an RO rushing the commands and calling Range Is Clear before the gun is fully seated and it now dropping. That split second is the difference between a DQ and no DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcobean Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) If only that sentence said "end of a string" instead of "end of a COF"... It doesn't need to. It includes to "facilitate loading before the start signal." Kind of hard to have a second string without a start signal......RO gives the "Load for your next string" command, and I'm ok with someone dragging a mag out of the front pocket to accomplish that. If the relaod from the front pocket while the clock's running, that's a different story...... And being ok with you may mean nothing to the thousands of other RO's out there who are reading the rule book and not assuming what something means. I personally am not ok with a shooter taking a mag from their front pocket during a COF. Which seems to be supported by the rule book What about 8.3.6.1 "Reload if required"? If the rulebook accommodates reloading during a multi-string course does that not allow for use of a barney mag in a front pocket. There is no competitive advantage gained by doing this, is there? none whatsoever. But there are other rules that say it can't be done What would those rules be? I can't find anything explicitly that allows or disallows the use of a barney mag during a multi-string stage. One more time. 5.2.4 Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “ if clear, hammer down and holster”. Which standby command, in the event that it's issued multiple times during a stage? The first one? Last one? Why? Edited May 30, 2014 by kcobean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 One more time. 5.2.4 Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “ if clear, hammer down and holster”. Which standby command, in the event that it's issued multiple times during a stage? The first one? Last one? Why? The first one. Because otherwise, you could legally reload with a mag from your front pocket during the first string. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 "if clear, hammer down and holser." <--- That is just an inconsistency in the rulebook.) Since we're busting out the rule book, the command is "if clear, hammer down, holster." There is no "and." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcobean Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 One more time. 5.2.4 Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “ if clear, hammer down and holster”. Which standby command, in the event that it's issued multiple times during a stage? The first one? Last one? Why? The first one. Because otherwise, you could legally reload with a mag from your front pocket during the first string. I can see arguments for both cases. A ruling from NROI would be great on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 One more time. 5.2.4 Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “ if clear, hammer down and holster”. Which standby command, in the event that it's issued multiple times during a stage? The first one? Last one? Why? The first one. Because otherwise, you could legally reload with a mag from your front pocket during the first string. I can see arguments for both cases. A ruling from NROI would be great on this one. agreed. A RULING not a john Amidon opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acpie360 Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 A multi string stages ends at if clear hammer down or prepare for your next string. So refilling your belt with mags carried in an apparel pocket is permissible. My reasoning for that is that each string has its own start signal which is the official start of a COF. You cannot start a new string unless the prior one has ended, hence the COF has ended for that string. No. A COF ends with Range is clear. Strings are not mini courses of fire by any definition other than yours. Sarge, Your statement is questionable. Rule 8.2.5 states: 8.2.5 A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the start signal. ... If a multi-string stage is considered to be one single COF, then every multi-string stage that requires a shooter to reload and re-holster his gun would be illegal by Rule 8.2.5. Obviously, we all know that is not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 The thought that came to mind after my last post is an RO rushing the commands and calling Range Is Clear before the gun is fully seated and it now dropping. That split second is the difference between a DQ and no DQ. How so? If the RO calls RIC prior to the competitor holstering, that is the RO's fault, not the competitor. If said RO called a DQ on the competitor, I'd arbitrate that all day and win. You can't follow rule 8.3.8 until 8.3.7.3 is met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 A multi string stages ends at if clear hammer down or prepare for your next string. So refilling your belt with mags carried in an apparel pocket is permissible. My reasoning for that is that each string has its own start signal which is the official start of a COF. You cannot start a new string unless the prior one has ended, hence the COF has ended for that string. No. A COF ends with Range is clear. Strings are not mini courses of fire by any definition other than yours. Sarge, Your statement is questionable. Rule 8.2.5 states: 8.2.5 A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the start signal. ... If a multi-string stage is considered to be one single COF, then every multi-string stage that requires a shooter to reload and re-holster his gun would be illegal by Rule 8.2.5. Obviously, we all know that is not true. Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Actually, the opinion tendered here is false. If a multi-string stage is considered to be one single COF, then every multi-string stage that requires a shooter to reload and re-holster his gun would be illegal by Rule 8.2.5. Obviously, we all know that is not true. We have the competitor reload and re-holster a loaded gun for convenience. If you really wanted to be a stickler, you'd give an "unload and show clear" at the end of each string, then give an immediate "make ready" command to commence the next one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 @frag316 makes a very good point. Kudos! Unfortunately, that still doesn't give the Production or Single Stack shooter clearance to use the mag in his front pocket because 5.2.4 makes "if clear, hammer down, and (sic) holster" to be the demarcation point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 At this point, you could probably give ICHDH and let them use the front pocket magazine. I'd also argue that the competitor could put the magazine they would normally put into their front pocket into a rear pocket when given the original "make ready" command and then swap its position between strings. I'll be honest--I've not shot multiple string stages on anything but standards or classifiers. The way those are constructed have not yet presented me with a problem of running out of full magazines from my belt. I could see a new shooter running into an issue, because they may not yet have the equipment they need, but it's pretty easy to make a couple of reasonable concessions (with MD/RM involvement, if/as necessary) to ensure they can shoot the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 The thought that came to mind after my last post is an RO rushing the commands and calling Range Is Clear before the gun is fully seated and it now dropping. That split second is the difference between a DQ and no DQ.How so? If the RO calls RIC prior to the competitor holstering, that is the RO's fault, not the competitor. If said RO called a DQ on the competitor, I'd arbitrate that all day and win. You can't follow rule 8.3.8 until 8.3.7.3 is met. That is what I was referring to. Drop it before RIC and it is a DQ, if it drops after RIC then it is on the RO. This is why I mentioned the rules sonetimes having to be very literal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I'd like them to amend the "magnet" rule to allow it for a Barney mag or a mag not in use. I'd like to use one behind my back for my single stack Barney mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jualdeaux Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I shoot SS and I keep the barney and first mag in the front pocket. I use the barney and put it in the back pocket. I then pull out the first mag from the front pocket and seat that. Voila! Everything is where it is supposed to be. If there is a multi string stage, and there is no ULSC and ICHDH, I just drop the magazine in the gun, insert a new one and holster. Then I can pull the barney out of the back if I want to put it on the belt. It isn't that hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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