Should Match Director or Range Master shoot the match?

[Phil Dunlop]

A long time ago, I shot a match against a very competetive MD who just happened to have one of those all mags on the table starts in a stage, the first one I can remember shooting.

The only shooter with a magnet in his pocket was that MD, but I was so furious I managed to pull the perfect stage out of the bag and handed him what he deserved.

On the other hand, there are no prize tables over here and I have shot matches I have MD's and other times I've been too busy to do so.

I don't think there should be a hard and fast rule, but the MD must be aware of his ethics and treat the match accordingly

P.D.

[Bryan 45]

Guys, thanks forhaving my back, much appreciated. But that realy wasnt the direction I was looking to go.

My thoughts were about how to go about building the credibility for a atch that would allow senior staff to compete without fear of peole crying foul. Is it as simple as just doing it and if people dont mind, they will be back, and if they dont like it they will not return?

How to build credibility? You, Jay, and Jomar have done that based on your character, actions, and reputations. No need to worry, my friends. Brian, I think you're right- if they have a problem with it, feel free to not come back next year.

For a new match director, this question must be answered by themselves. Have they put the time, effort, and energy into this sport for competitors to trust them the same?

[dcloudy777]

If there were an MD/RM that I wouldn't trust to shoot his/her own match and adjudicate it fairly, I wouldn't shoot his match anyway.

[J.Schmitt]

If there were an MD/RM that I wouldn't trust to shoot his/her own match and adjudicate it fairly, I wouldn't shoot his match anyway.

That is a good one sentence summary.

Jay

[EaZeNuTZ33]

If there were an MD/RM that I wouldn't trust to shoot his/her own match and adjudicate it fairly, I wouldn't shoot his match anyway.

That is a good one sentence summary.

Jay

That can only come into play if you already know the MD/RM, otherwise what you hear is just hearsay. With my experience, that has altered my way of seeing this, I didn't know them then, and NOW won't shoot their match again.

[pmt]

Of the 350 competitors in a major match, 300 of us don't expect the prize table to cover our expenses. Of the 300, 275 of us wouldn't know the MD or RM if we were squadded with them.

Just the opinion of a guy that is willing to pay hundreds in match fees just to shoot a major match once or twice a year.

[Chuck Anderson]

Brian, I have seen matches where the staff had a separate prize table. Surely that would remove any whining?

Nope then the whining is just about how come the staff got this or that on their prize table.

[Shane Zeppelin]

I know how much work the MD/RM/RO's and support staff put into a match. As a competitor, I have no problem with any of them shooting the match for score or walking the prize table. As long as they are honest in their scores and shoot the same stages the competitors shoot, I don't have a problem with it. Now if I see a majority of the RO's walking the prize table way ahead of their ability that I might see them shoot in other matches, I might question it, but I would have the option not to support that match again.

For the most part, the expense of shooting the match would buy me any prize I might win. I just like shooting the match for score. Prizes are secondary.

In the end, I feel that with all the work the MD/RM/RO's put into a match to make it fun for the competitors, they deserve to shoot for score and walk the prize table. Shooters will figure it out really fast if a match was poorly run and the match reputation would suffer for it.

[co-exprs]

What MD has the stinkin time! I didn't even have the time to properly shoot in my own stages. What shooting I did was not for score and wasn't very good either. Had I shot for score I would have been embarrassed with my results. I was so tired and mentally drained, I was short stroking my nova and fumbling reloads. I was so focused on everyone else, there was no chance of me shooting to my personal standards. I don't have anything against MDs shooting for score or for fun. They've earned it more than anyone.

[DocMedic]

I think this thread swayed from MD/RM shooting the match for score to Staff walking prize tables. As for MD/RM's to be able to shoot their own match for score, I say HELL YEA! What Right do you have to say different? Now I've worked with MD's here who absolutely will not shoot their own matches and I respect that. But for me if I put in the 100's of 1000's of hours to setup a match I would want to shoot it, even if I know that I'll never be able to shoot it at full potential. If you as a MD/RM believe you cannot provide great customer service to the shooters while being able to shoot for score, then don't shoot for score, really that simple. But If you can handle it and have the time, make the decision if you want to shoot or not shoot your own match. From what I've seen all the MD/RM's I know shoot multiple matches around the area anyways, being able to shoot your own match just gives you another piece of information that you can analyze about yourself later.

Now for the Prize table stuff, just as Chuck said, if a MD/RM wanted something, they'd just take it before it ever was seen on a prize table and you'd never even know that item ever existed. I know some sponsor's would send their wares months in advance of a match. If MD/RM want to walk to prize table, I have no issues with it. I see it as a award for them reflected as a Shooter and not a RM/MD. Most probably wouldn't walk their own tables but it is a Choice they have. As for the separate Prize table for staff/RO's, not only I say no but HELL NO. If something like this would happen you would just basically created a new "division" that you'll have to deal with, and also not only that but not all staff/RO's shoot the same class. So how would you run it by Overall? So open shooters would skew the bracket against He-man(heavy metal) Shooters? Your going to create one hell of a mess for yourself. Random stuff taken off the prize table and given to RO's as a drawing is a great way to regonise the hard work that the RO's put on to make sure the match runs. Hell I've RO'd every JJ and Denise Major match since 2008 (RM3G, He-Man, Etc) and I Still have never won a random drawing. (Hint hint Denise ) but even that It doesn't bother me because its a nice way to keep morale high with the RO's. Trust me were beat down, dragged out, and half dead by the end of match, but we love (hopefully) what we do and thats why we RO.

Besides if your RO'ing I hoping you don't think your going to shoot your greatest match. Sure sometimes things do "click" every once in a while. But shooting during RO Shoots is usually pretty rough from the get go. One specially in natural terrain matches, courses have a tendency to change through out a match. What use to be a rocky sandy wash, just became a smoothed out super highway after 100+ shooters have went through. What use to be a "candy-cane" shotgun style stage, turns into take all slugs from one position because new avenue of approach to targets start opening up due to other shooters blowing limbs off of trees. I can't remember ever being able to walk stages a day early, just because the fact that we still have to Build them. Also you probably won't get much of a break between shooting stages as your usually shooting a much higher stage count in a day then normal shooters would, and also you don't get to go to the next stage to watch how other shooters are shooting the stage to compare notes too. Its just something you have to accept if your going to shoot as a RO, or shoot during a RO shoot.

I may be wrong but from what I've read in some of these post on here is people complaining about "cheating" in one way or form coming from the staff/RO's. If you see something then Speak up! But be able to back it up with proof and not a allegation. You do have staff/RO's that are High Level Performers, and sometimes even a blind squirrel will find a nut now and again. Be Objective not Subjective.

I love the whole argument about the "payed" shooter thing. Just because staff/RO's didn't pay upfront with cash doesn't mean were not "paying" for it later. and its usually payed on our backs, sweat and even tears lol. Trust me I would rather give Denise the money to just shoot the match and be completely stress free of all responsibilities, but I know how hard it is find quality people to help run a match and considering I'm sorta local I feel I'm a bit obligated to help anyway I can. (plus I love the people I get to work with) Being able to shoot the match for free is just a perk. But to say i'm not losing anything because of it is misguided and foolish. I'm one of the more lucky one as it only takes me a few hours to get to Raton, some of the RO's are travelling from all across the country taking weeks of work to participate at this match. Im pretty sure their losing out on Money made doing their jobs then what they gain from RO'ing. But we do it because we love the sport and without Volunteers this sport will become dust.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Just to clarify.....when I refer to people as "paid shooters", i do so because I look at them as the customers who are purchasing a product/service you are selling. It is, in no way, a way of saying the RO's do not "pay" their way. If you count the number of hours required of the RO's and considered their match fee as payment, all matches would be in trouble for not meeting minimum wage requirements (for waiters and waitresses)!

As for an RO prize table....I play Devil's advocate with myself on this. On one side...it eliminates any concern about cheating, favoritism, and prize table shananigans. On the other side of the argument....the only way to ensure things are "fair" is to have a separate but equal prize table and force all RO's to shoot the same division. The issues that come to mind here is that now you have the top RO's taking guns home who would have taken home much smaller prizes, and not everyone wants to shoot the same division. My best answer here is....make sure you trust your RO's before you allow them to work your match. Their reputation becomes a influence on your reputation after all!

Lastly, as for an MD/RM pulling what they want from a prize table ahead of time. Well, rumors have been around about some matches, some MD's, and so on. I'm sure the idea you mentioned there wasn't an original, out of the blue, idea! There have been matches dying (slowly and abruptly) over the last couple years and months, and many people have been vocal about it being a good thing that those matches were dying. "Missing" prizes, guns especially, becomes a major concern for the reputation and longevity of the sport in general.....especially when you must remember that the media would LOVE to get their hands on a story about an AR15 and high capacity happy crowd of right wing radicals magically making guns disappear that were supposed to be transferred on a 4473 to a match participant!

[VIPERONE]

I am the MD and have been the Club President of the Big Piney Sportsman's Club in South Central Missouri for over 25 years. We shoot Multi Gun, a Tactical Rifle Match, A Handgun Match, ICORE Revolver Match, 600 Yard IBS, 600 yard Club Bench Rest, and 50 yard Bench Rest. I about forgot Trap & Skeet, every month and all the Classes, etc held at the range.

My point is I do not have any free time to shoot anywhere else but our Club. I would like to go to the Midwest 3-Gun which is about 3 hours away. It falls on our Reactive Steel Challenge Handgun Match on Saturday, and the ICORE Revolver Match on Sunday. And I will be setting up the Steel Friday for the Saturday Match.

This last Multi Gun Club Match we had a few shooters run the match on Saturday proofing the stages, after we got the Stages all set up. I shot on Saturday with them.

I planned on making one run Sunday. By the time we were done Sunday afternoon I was dragging tail and called it a day without shooting.

As was said above, when working the Match you are never on your game like someone who just shows up and shoots.

Bob

[Vlad]

If there were an MD/RM that I wouldn't trust to shoot his/her own match and adjudicate it fairly, I wouldn't shoot his match anyway.

This.

I think in most cases the MD/RMs are so damn busy and frazled that the odds of them shooting a "good" match for their skill level is pretty low.

I think MD/RM should shoot their own match if for no other reason that I think priests should marry if they want to give advice on marriage. Basically, they need to experience their own match as a shooter if they are to improve the experience for the rest of the shooters. If you can work it that way, then having two MD/RMs and having one be the man in charge and the other one shoot over a multi day match is probably a good idea. This morning you are a shooter, this afternoon you are RM, tomorrow we swap around.

[Hippocampus]

If there were an MD/RM that I wouldn't trust to shoot his/her own match and adjudicate it fairly, I wouldn't shoot his match anyway.

Exactly.

I would not and do not support a MD (or a company for that matter) whom I do not trust. I've heard of a MD shooting stages/long range targets days before a match (shooting them several times without changing anything) so that they would know their holds and such when the match actually started. One could argue "Oh, well he wanted to make sure the stages were set up properly." ...yeah, oooook...