Bad qualification

[SecretNY]

Hi, I'm new to the board and looking for some advice. I'm a police officer and thought I was shooting well. I go to the range at least once a week (250-500 rds.) I carry a Sig p226 9mm and a p239 as a backup. At the range I use Winchester "White box" 9mm 115 gr. I get at Wal-mart. I practiced the qualification many times at the range with a perfect score, however, when I went to really qualify, we used our duty ammo. We carry Winchester Ranger 127 gr. +p+. To my shock, I didn't qualify the first time. I couldn't believe how poorly I did. Luckily, the second attempt was with the range ammo.

My question: I noticed how much more power was in the +p+ load. Is there something I need to do to shoot that kind of ammo.

I'm very concerned.

Thanks

[Flexmoney]

It might be that you need to refine your grip and stance to better suit the hotter ammo.

It also could be a simple as needing to shoot some hotter ammo for a while to get used to it (you can get hot ammo that isn't the price of your duty ammo).

[j1b]

First, Thanks for what you are doing. I have a great respect for LE officers and what you do.

Second, I wouldn't be overly concerned. The core fundamentals you have proven time and again in practice are there. Core fundamentals being the operative words. The new ammo will take some getting used to, and if possible I'd advise you shoot it now and again to get a feel for it. Your body will quickly learn to adjust, and you'll be back to good quickly. Ultimately I would say it would be good to practice with these, or similar rounds (ala reloading ammo that "feels" the same)

I'd also recommend shooting in a "match" environment when you can. The pressures will be similar and I think its something that should be accounted for in the first performance. Nerves do funny things, and like shooting the new ammo, you need to develop skills on how to deal with it. They never go away coincidentally (I've been shooting for some time, and still get nervous at every match) but you do learn how to perform under such pressures.

In the end though, don't be worried. Trust what you are doing, let the natural adaptations take place, and you'll be where you need to be.

Thanks again!

JB

[robomanusa]

If you do not reload, the factory Rem UMC 115gr 9mm is just a hair bit hotter, though not by much. And if you can find some S&B 124gr FMJ that might get you closer to the duty ammo.

[BSeevers]

+P+ is a pretty hot load but I would guess that your qualification is at moderate distances( if its not then that's a whole nother story) so the impact of 115 gr walmart and Rem 127 gr should not be much different.

I would agree that it is probably "match or qualification nerves" and agree that you would benefit from a IPSC or IDPA match or two(hundred) . I would however get a box of the Remington ammo and take it to the range and sight it in at say 10 yards vs a box of Walmat 115 gr. Just to make sure. You never know some guns don't work with some ammos. Not a common occurance though since you are using quality guns. I have found Sigs to be very accurate.

Practicing 200-500 rds a week is way above what most LE practice schedules are, so if you a using the proper techniques then your ability with increase greatly and most of this would be a moot point.

[DougCarden]

First of all, as an LE/SWAT firearms instructor, thank you for taking your precious time to go shoot on your own. It is that important.

Second of all, you need to find out what is your problem area. If you are shooting something like the FBI quals, that is easy to break down. For any LEO qualification course I have shot in the last 12 years, there are three things you must do.

Forget the 70%/30% strong/weak hand shit that is in vogue today. You need to grip the crap out of the gun, leaving your trigger finger relaxed enough to smoothly trip the trigger. This will help you during strong/weak hand courses of fire, and at 4-10 yds firing multiple rounds at speed. Also remember at 10yds and in you can get away with "seeing less", not the same perfect sight picture at 25yds.

Dry fire and practice drawing from your duty leather so it is an unconcious reflex, and you can do it smoothly on demand. Notice I didnt say quickly, I said smoothly. Speed will come when you are smooth all the time.

Learn where your gun shoots at 7-10-15-25 yds. Take one day and learn where your sights need to be to shoot groups at these distances. This will show you what you need to "see" to get good hits at these distances, and it will give you confidence to do well. I dont care what any instructor says, when the target faces you will have some butterflies, or you need to do something else. Look at it as an opportunity to do your best on each run, and DO NOT dwell on a bad run and pack it around with you to the next stage. It is over and do well the next stage.

One last thing, DO NOT Psyche yourself out with the "Powerful" duty ammo that kicks more than the practice ammo. Get your technique down 100%, and it wont matter what is in the gun. Once you learn to control the gun, not the other way around, and have trigger control(see Rob Leatham's website for mucho good info on that) you will like the hot ammo better, because it will bring the sights back faster for your next shot!

Oh yeah, what Jack said, go shoot matches! It is fun, good people, and we need another cop that can shoot well to make up for everyone else that cant!

[EricW]

If you practice with foo-foo ammo all the time, it's going to screw you up on game day, if for no other reason than things suddenly being "different."

Buying your own practice +p+ ammo at $25+/box certainly isn't practical. Reloading your own might be the ticket, however. I reload my own 9mm for this very reason.

All the other advice applies too. The only way to get over stage fright is to get on stage a bunch. Eventually you'll forget you were ever nervous, or if you're really lucky, you'll be able to focus some of that anxiety and make it work for you. I discovered that I really enjoyed shooting man on man shootoffs this summer.

[Chriss Grube]

The biggest problems I've seen in 15 years as a FI for my dept. has been poor grip and head cases that panic. When I came on the job we had .357's. In the academy we started with .38 ammo then moved to .357's. Half the class freaked because it was "more powerful" It all comes down to doing the same thing over and over. The ammo don't mean squat. Line up the sights and squeeze. I've seen lots of guys over the years that can shoot out the lights but put them on the line for real with the clock running and they're shitting themselves trying to hurry and get the shots off. Relax and shoot. Let's face it the times on the Qual course is longer than some marriages. Make sure you have the proper grip and stop thinking, hell didn't your FTO tell you not to think?

[SecretNY]

Thanks for the replies. Part of my New Years resolution was to get into an IDPA club near by.

Be safe,

SecretNY

[Pierruiggi]

I agree with DougC's post, but I'd like to add (like others did) that if you have the possibility to reload your own ammo to the same specs as your duty ammo and practice with that, it would be better. You have to relearn the timing of your guns with that load.

However, it is also worthy of consideration the wear on your guns because of 2000 rounds a month (500rd a week) of +p+ spec ammo.

[dirtypool40]

Again a disclaimer, all this is just one guy's opinion...

First, even though you are LEO I would not limit yourself to IDPA. The best pistols shooters in the world are IPSC shooters. Despite their propoganda, IDPA is not going to teach you tactics, and if they try, decline politely. You're a cop, you know tactics already, real ones. When I went through the FLETC instructor course we talked a lot about "training scars" and proper technique. Don't confuse shooting technique with psuedo tactics. You need technique for performance.

Try to get yourself used to performing under pressure. Most good, experienced shooters shoot BETTER under pressure. Get a timer. You know your qual course. Practice the hardest parts, and shorten the time limit, just a little. Or shoot the same times and back the target up a bit. When it comes to race day, things will seem easy and you'll see the qual as an opportunity to excel instead of a terrifying obstacle.

Jumping chanels to what may be a specific technique problem. I know that it's a bit of a leap from what you wrote, but I have seen it happen without competition or coaching. I had a friend headed off to USMC "basic school" before pilot training. He new I was a competitive shooter / instructor, and asked me to help him get ready so he could burn up the pistol qual.

I showed him a few things, like the guys above said "core techniques"; site alignment, trigger prep / control and grip / stance. Problem was away from any competition / coaching he "devolved" to what was comfortable and produced acceptable reulsts. He ended up in this ultra relaxed "resting" weaver that looked like an offhand RIFLE stance but with a Berreta. He shot groups as good as anyone there so they would not try to change him, but he was not able to fire faster than about once every five seconds or move at all.

Just guessing from what you wrote, but it sounds like currently you may be too relaxed when you practice. If you are used to standing in something that looks like a weaver stance, RESTING the gun on your left palm while you liesurely squeeze off shots under no time limit, you are not simulating your "game day" pressures or techniques. You'll have no recoil control like that, shot to shot recovery will be slow and inconsistent, and when you pump up the pf with duty ammo the gun is likely to bounce off your forehead with every shot.

I got a big kick out of my buddy when he came back and wanted to go shooting. This big strong Marine, was letting an M9 recoil 90 degrees, it looked like he should have had a scar in his forehead from it. I guess it's testament to the M9 and that limp wristing ain't a big problem. He did have the basics of sight alignment and triger control down, but as we've discussed those are only a part of the equation.

I guess after all that rambling , my message is; get out and see some good shooters, shoot under pressure, practice under pressure and with ammo closer to your duty load. You're in charge of that gun, call it "biyatch" a couple of times, sometimes that helps. If you don't feel some fatigue in your "gripper" muscles after a range session, you are probably not doing it right.

Have fun, see you out there.

[Pierruiggi]

I'm always amazed to see how much thought there is behind your posts dirtypool. Its a shame we couldn't meet awhile ago.

[dirtypool40]

Thanks bud, I appreciate that. Like a lot of guys on here, when someone asks me for help, or my opinion, I try to give it to them.

Hang in there, we'll get squadded up soon enough. I plan to head to Argentina several times in the Spring.

We'll see you there.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Make sure the point of impact is the same. How much of that ammo will the department supply you with for practice.

I would definitley run the quals a few times before the actual one that counts with the same ammo.

I would say nerves had a lot to do with it.

It really makes me happy to see Law Enforcment taking the time to train properly and get better with their tools.

[SecretNY]

dirtypool, thanks for the post. Not to change my own topic, but the reason I was looking at IDPA was I thought they used standard firearms (eg. no scopes on pistols etc.) That's pretty much what I've seen with ISPC handguns. I might be wrong since I don't know much about IDPA.

I'll look into it.

[BSeevers]

I think less than 30% of people in IPSC use Open scoped guns. The rest use "real" ones. Production, which your 226 would be perfect for, is by far the fastest growing division. And yes the best pistol shooters are in IPSC.

My dad can beat up your dad

[robomanusa]

I'm glad to see that SecretNY is concerned enough that he failed the quals the first time to want to try and better himself for the next.... Far too many times Ive watched officers at our local range here do there yearly quals and fail...then be moved to the back of the line and try again and again until by some stroke of luck they get a passing score and they act like like its no big deal and really dont give a shit.

[EricW]

The odds of your finding an environment where you can grow as a shooter are much higher at an IPSC/USPSA match than at an IDPA match. That is not a slam on IDPA in any way, it's just the simple fact of the matter. Don't worry about tactics, defeating Mothra and Rodan, getting attacked by the Seven Samurai in an elevator, or anything else.

Focus on The Shooting and everything will work itself out.

[Duane Thomas]

SecretNY, just out of curiousity could you describe the stance and grip you're using now? The reason I ask is that I myself carry a Glock 34 loaded with the exact same load your department issues, but I shoot matches and do the vast majority of my practice with a much softer load. A few days ago I went to the range and fired about 150 rounds of hot +P and +P+ 9mm, and what struck me most forcefully about the experience was just how little difference the recoil level made in my shooting. Good technique is out there, once you learn it you'll find the recoil difference between a standard pressure 9mm and +P+ is really not that big a deal.

[SecretNY]

I shoot isoceles with a right hand grip (thumbs pointing down/overlapping). For me, I noticed that my group was much wider and there were a lot high and right.

With the softer load I can make very nice groups.

I am going to go to the range this week and confirm this assessment.

Happy New Year!

[Duane Thomas]

I'm not sure what you mean by "thumbs pointing down/overlapping." Do you mean the Massad Ayoob thumb-over-thumb thing?

[SecretNY]

I'm not sure what you mean by "thumbs pointing down/overlapping." Do you mean the Massad Ayoob thumb-over-thumb thing?

Yeah, that's how I was taught.

[Chriss Grube]

Ok there is a big part of your problem. Get Matt Burkett's DVD series 1st disc. He does the best job of showing the proper grip.

[EricW]

(Preface: Mas is a nice guy and a smart guy. I like his writing. His shooting system, or least what it was 15 years ago, is an entirely different story.)

Take it from someone whose first handgun training was from an Ayoob disciple. Dump that technique just like a bad habit. It has taken me YEARS to undo the damage. If you do nothing more than simply look at the top of this page, and observe and copy Brian's freestyle platform, you will be miles ahead of the "tactical pretzel" system.

FWIW, I watched Mas shoot on camera on Sighting In last night on the IDPA episode. Hopefully, you can catch a re-run and judge for yourself. Tape it, and you'll also be able to see Todd Jarrett's modern, IPSC technique and come to your own conclusions.

In addition to Matt Burkett's series, there's a lot of good vids out there. Jerry Barnhart and Ron Avery have their own system. You can now watch Doug Koenig give lessons for free on ShootingUSA's Sighting In television show on OLN. Rob Leatham did similar instruction a while back on American Shooter.

And for $20, you can buy the Book That Started It All from our gracious host. It saved me from a lifetime of pretzel-itis. Don't forget to get Steve Anderson's book when you buy Brian's. Then you can reinforce all that good stuff you learned.

[diehli]

Sighting In

Grip info: http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/KOENIG1/koenig1.html