Is tv is a DQ?

[TitoR]

I friend of mine just started competitive shooting and during his first event he was DQ'd, I believe wrongly, but what do I know. Here is what happened:

He finished the course of fire and before the RO uttered the words "If you are finished unload and show clear", he pulled his magazine and fired his last round downrange, further than 20 feet and in a safe direction, but not aimed at a target.

The RO asked him to stop and DQ'd him.

So what do you think? DQ or was he still completing the course of fire?

Tito

[Sarge]

That's pretty dumb but it's not a DQ.

[atbarr]

Yes^ But tell him to always wait for the command. I figure he will.

Edited April 17, 2014 by atbarr

[Onagoth]

He removed the magazine and fired a shot...shots fired during the unloading or reloading of a firearm is a DQ.

You're allowed to fire shots after "ULSC" but not after if clear hammer down... but this isn't relevant to this in my view.

In the circumstances you described, I would have DQ'd him as well....10.4.3

Edited April 17, 2014 by Onagoth

[motosapiens]

He removed the magazine and fired a shot...shots fired during the unloading or reloading of a firearm is a DQ.

You're allowed to fire shots after "ULSC" but not after if clear hammer down... but this isn't relevant to this in my view.

In the circumstances you described, I would have DQ'd him as well....10.4.3

Wait, what? Was the shot fired *while* removing the magazine? Doesn't seem like it.

I have seen numerous people remove the magazine, notice a hard-cover mike, and fire the last round to make it up. I would not DQ someone for that.

[Cy Soto]

What rule did the RO cite for the DQ?

[GrumpyOne]

He removed the magazine and fired a shot...shots fired during the unloading or reloading of a firearm is a DQ.

You're allowed to fire shots after "ULSC" but not after if clear hammer down... but this isn't relevant to this in my view.

In the circumstances you described, I would have DQ'd him as well....10.4.3

How is it not relevant? You yourself state that you are allowed to fire shots after "ULSC", but not after hammer down....

You might want to read the definitions of reloading, unloading, etc. in the glossary of terms in the rule book. From what you state, firing that shot after ULSC is a DQ...from the definitions...which we know it is not.

Loading-The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery(slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire.

Reloading- The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire).

Unloading-The removal of ammunition from a firearm. This action is completed when the firearm is empty of all ammunition and the magazine removed or cylinder opened and shown for inspection by a range officer.

In essence, he was not unloading the firearm, as he did not eject a live round. It was not an Accidental discharge ( the competitor meant to fire the round from reading the OP's post), the shot did not travel in an unsafe direction (over a berm), did not impact within 10' of the shooter,

10.4.3 doesn't come into it...as it was an intentional shot, and not part of 8.3.7...

While it may have been not the brightest thing to do (those shots count for score), not illegal...No different than if the shooter had decided to empty a full mag into the berm when told to ULSC, then drop the mag and show an empty chamber...

Edited April 17, 2014 by GrumpyOne

[Sarge]

He removed the magazine and fired a shot...shots fired during the unloading or reloading of a firearm is a DQ.

You're allowed to fire shots after "ULSC" but not after if clear hammer down... but this isn't relevant to this in my view.

In the circumstances you described, I would have DQ'd him as well....10.4.3

Wait, what? Was the shot fired *while* removing the magazine? Doesn't seem like it.

I have seen numerous people remove the magazine, notice a hard-cover mike, and fire the last round to make it up. I would not DQ someone for that.

agreed! I often see make ups shot after the mag is dropped or removed. It's not a DQ as stated in the OP.

[Onagoth]

The situation described by the OP doesn't indicate it was a make up shot....it wasn't fired at a target and I presume he wasn't looking at the sights (I wasn't there)

The defintions describe when unloading ends, but not when it starts....the OP mentioned he finished the stage and removed the magazine, which to me means he is unloading his gun. A shot fired during a reload or unloading is a DQ...

Had circumstances suggested that this was an aimed make up shot, I'd likely feel differently given that he is still going through the CoF....the circumstances don't suggest this is the case

Edited April 17, 2014 by Onagoth

[Onagoth]

He removed the magazine and fired a shot...shots fired during the unloading or reloading of a firearm is a DQ.

You're allowed to fire shots after "ULSC" but not after if clear hammer down... but this isn't relevant to this in my view.

In the circumstances you described, I would have DQ'd him as well....10.4.3

You might want to read the definitions of reloading, unloading, etc. In the glossary of terms in the rule book. From what you state, firing that shot after ULSC is a DQ...from the definitions...which we know it is not.

Firing shots after ULSC is not itself a DQ....you're allowed to finish a stage on your own time regardless of when the RO gives that command....but if you are in the process of unloading or reloading, and you fire a shot, its a DQ...this is the case no matter when it happens during a CoF

I've read the definitions thoroughly...thank you

Edited April 17, 2014 by Onagoth

[GrumpyOne]

Ok then...finish the stage, drop the mag, fire a make shot and get DQ'ed...You are not finished unloading the gun (you started unloading the firearm the split second you dropped the mag)...regardless of what your intentions are, make up shot or not, you did not complete the action of unloading your firearm once you started it, and fired a shot during the unloading process....You can't have it both ways...If you argue that you weren't in the process of unloading, then why did you pause for so long then drop your mag?

By your logic, in order to make up a shot after you drop the mag, you'd have to rack out the live round, insert a new mag, and rack in a new round....because you never finished unloading in the first place...

[motosapiens]

The situation described by the OP doesn't indicate it was a make up shot....it wasn't fired at a target and I presume he wasn't looking at the sights (I wasn't there)

The defintions describe when unloading ends, but not when it starts....the OP mentioned he finished the stage and removed the magazine, which to me means he is unloading his gun. A shot fired during a reload or unloading is a DQ...

Had circumstances suggested that this was an aimed make up shot, I'd likely feel differently given that he is still going through the CoF....the circumstances don't suggest this is the case

Think about that for a minute. If you really believe that removing the magazine means you are 'unloading', then it would also have to be dq if you take a make-up shot. You can't have it both ways. The rules don't say you can shoot while loading or unloading if you aim at a target.

When you are in the process of removing the magazine, you are 'unloading'. Once the magazine is removed, you are not necessarily still 'unloading'. You might be, if you rack the slide to eject the round, but if you decide to aim and fire the gun after the magazine is removed, you are *clearly* not unloading. I don't see how it could be more clear.

Edited April 17, 2014 by motosapiens

[Thomas H]

He removed the magazine and fired a shot...shots fired during the unloading or reloading of a firearm is a DQ.

You're allowed to fire shots after "ULSC" but not after if clear hammer down... but this isn't relevant to this in my view.

In the circumstances you described, I would have DQ'd him as well....10.4.3

You might want to read the definitions of reloading, unloading, etc. In the glossary of terms in the rule book. From what you state, firing that shot after ULSC is a DQ...from the definitions...which we know it is not.

Firing shots after ULSC is not itself a DQ....you're allowed to finish a stage on your own time regardless of when the RO gives that command....but if you are in the process of unloading or reloading, and you fire a shot, its a DQ...this is the case no matter when it happens during a CoF

I've read the definitions thoroughly...thank you

This, however, does not fit the definition of unloading. It fits the definition of "shooting".

He removed the magazine, pointed the firearm deliberately in a safe direction, and while not moving, fired a shot. This cannot be construed as being part of the unloading process, and is in no way a DQ.

How do you consider taking a deliberate shot as "unloading" the firearm? Unless of course you also mean that every shot you take is technically unloading the firearm, just very slowly?

[Onagoth]

Ok then...finish the stage, drop the mag, fire a make shot and get DQ'ed...You are not finished unloading the gun (you started unloading the firearm the split second you dropped the mag)...regardless of what your intentions are, make up shot or not, you did not complete the action of unloading your firearm once you started it, and fired a shot during the unloading process....You can't have it both ways...If you argue that you weren't in the process of unloading, then why did you pause for so long then drop your mag?

By your logic, in order to make up a shot after you drop the mag, you'd have to rack out the live round, insert a new mag, and rack in a new round....because you never finished unloading in the first place...

I know its contrary...which is why I would leave it up to the arb committee to decide. Has NROI ever dealt with this issue?

In my personal view, safety is paramount. If you're discharging rounds which do not fulfill a course objective solely because you are too lazy to properly unload a firearm, then I will let the MD and RM decide if the DQ is valid, but I will still issue it.

[Thomas H]

Ok then...finish the stage, drop the mag, fire a make shot and get DQ'ed...You are not finished unloading the gun (you started unloading the firearm the split second you dropped the mag)...regardless of what your intentions are, make up shot or not, you did not complete the action of unloading your firearm once you started it, and fired a shot during the unloading process....You can't have it both ways...If you argue that you weren't in the process of unloading, then why did you pause for so long then drop your mag?

By your logic, in order to make up a shot after you drop the mag, you'd have to rack out the live round, insert a new mag, and rack in a new round....because you never finished unloading in the first place...

I know its contrary...which is why I would leave it up to the arb committee to decide. Has NROI ever dealt with this issue?

In my personal view, safety is paramount. If you're discharging rounds which do not fulfill a course objective solely because you are too lazy to properly unload a firearm, then I will let the MD and RM decide if the DQ is valid, but I will still issue it.

Again---based on what rule? Last I knew, there wasn't a rule that said "can't take any shot that doesn't fulfill a course objective" otherwise misses would be penalized even more yes?

And the RO doesn't get to make the call "I didn't like why you made that perfectly legal and safe shot, so I"m going to DQ you." Or even better, "I think you are lazy, so I'm going to attempt to kick you out of my match."

Deliberate shot in a safe direction while not moving. Under what rule can you DQ this person?

[GrumpyOne]

You cost anyone $100 over something like this....and I will almost guarantee that the next match you RO in will have very few shooters...

[Onagoth]

Ok then...finish the stage, drop the mag, fire a make shot and get DQ'ed...You are not finished unloading the gun (you started unloading the firearm the split second you dropped the mag)...regardless of what your intentions are, make up shot or not, you did not complete the action of unloading your firearm once you started it, and fired a shot during the unloading process....You can't have it both ways...If you argue that you weren't in the process of unloading, then why did you pause for so long then drop your mag?

By your logic, in order to make up a shot after you drop the mag, you'd have to rack out the live round, insert a new mag, and rack in a new round....because you never finished unloading in the first place...

I know its contrary...which is why I would leave it up to the arb committee to decide. Has NROI ever dealt with this issue?

In my personal view, safety is paramount. If you're discharging rounds which do not fulfill a course objective solely because you are too lazy to properly unload a firearm, then I will let the MD and RM decide if the DQ is valid, but I will still issue it.

Again---based on what rule? Last I knew, there wasn't a rule that said "can't take any shot that doesn't fulfill a course objective" otherwise misses would be penalized even more yes?

And the RO doesn't get to make the call "I didn't like why you made that perfectly legal and safe shot, so I"m going to DQ you." Or even better, "I think you are lazy, so I'm going to attempt to kick you out of my match."

Deliberate shot in a safe direction while not moving. Under what rule can you DQ this person?

I already said the rule....10.4.3

[Onagoth]

You cost anyone $100 over something like this....and I will almost guarantee that the next match you RO in will have very few shooters...

Well...either that or people learn to properly unload their firearms after finishing a CoF...I highly doubt this would cause people to avoid matches since almost no one unloads their guns in this fashion.

FWIW, I am going to email our NROI coordinator to see what the right answer is here.

[GrumpyOne]

Prepare to be disappointed in the response...

[motosapiens]

FWIW, I am going to email our NROI coordinator to see what the right answer is here.

Excellent plan. Problem solved. Another enos forum success.

[Onagoth]

Prepare to be disappointed in the response...

I don't think I'd be disappointed...I might learn something. In that sense, its a worthwhile discussion. I am not so invested in myself that I won't admit I'm wrong on something.

[frag316]

He removed the magazine and fired a shot...shots fired during the unloading or reloading of a firearm is a DQ.

You're allowed to fire shots after "ULSC" but not after if clear hammer down... but this isn't relevant to this in my view.

In the circumstances you described, I would have DQ'd him as well....10.4.3

Sorry, you've missed something very important--the RO hadn't even given him ULSC. He was still on the course of fire and is allowed to make safe shots as he sees fit until given either a stop or "If clear, etc."

Additionally, 10.4.3 is not applicable. If you look at the range communication section:

8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” or “Unload and Show Clear” – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty.

(Emphasis mine)

Until the competitor does those actions, he/she is not considered to have finished shooting, regardless of where they aim the gun, unless their shot is deemed unsafe--in which case the DQ is for unsafe gunhandling, not for shooting during a reload.

Further:

“If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” or “If Clear, Cylinder Closed, Holster” for revolvers only – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). (Emphasis mine again)

The competitor is authorized to shoot until this command is given.

10.4.3's prohibitions at the beginning or the end of a COF only apply between "Make Ready" and the beep (beginning) and "If you are finished" and "If clear, hammer down and holster" (end).

[Thomas H]

Ok then...finish the stage, drop the mag, fire a make shot and get DQ'ed...You are not finished unloading the gun (you started unloading the firearm the split second you dropped the mag)...regardless of what your intentions are, make up shot or not, you did not complete the action of unloading your firearm once you started it, and fired a shot during the unloading process....You can't have it both ways...If you argue that you weren't in the process of unloading, then why did you pause for so long then drop your mag?

By your logic, in order to make up a shot after you drop the mag, you'd have to rack out the live round, insert a new mag, and rack in a new round....because you never finished unloading in the first place...

I know its contrary...which is why I would leave it up to the arb committee to decide. Has NROI ever dealt with this issue?

In my personal view, safety is paramount. If you're discharging rounds which do not fulfill a course objective solely because you are too lazy to properly unload a firearm, then I will let the MD and RM decide if the DQ is valid, but I will still issue it.

Again---based on what rule? Last I knew, there wasn't a rule that said "can't take any shot that doesn't fulfill a course objective" otherwise misses would be penalized even more yes?

And the RO doesn't get to make the call "I didn't like why you made that perfectly legal and safe shot, so I"m going to DQ you." Or even better, "I think you are lazy, so I'm going to attempt to kick you out of my match."

Deliberate shot in a safe direction while not moving. Under what rule can you DQ this person?

I already said the rule....10.4.3

Yes, you did. However, since that obviously doesn't apply, I'm curious as to what other rule applies based on your commentary about how you don't like lazy.

Again---a deliberate aimed shot in a safe direction while not moving. How, under any definition, does that match the definitions required for 10.4.3 to be applicable?

And yes---calling for that DQ means the competitor who has been unfairly and incorrectly DQed will have to argue before the RM. If the RM for some reason doesn't know the rules, they may uphold that DQ. If so, according to your statement "I know its contrary...which is why I would leave it up to the arb committee to decide" ---you don't mind making a competitor cough up $100 to argue something that you called because you think their perfectly legal actions are "lazy" and you don't like it.

I certainly hope you contact NROI.

I note that plenty of people have quite legally taken a shot with a magazine removed from a firearm. Are you saying they all should have been DQed?

Edited because I needed to fix typos.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Thomas H

[Onagoth]

He removed the magazine and fired a shot...shots fired during the unloading or reloading of a firearm is a DQ.

You're allowed to fire shots after "ULSC" but not after if clear hammer down... but this isn't relevant to this in my view.

In the circumstances you described, I would have DQ'd him as well....10.4.3

Sorry, you've missed something very important--the RO hadn't even given him ULSC. He was still on the course of fire and is allowed to make safe shots as he sees fit until given either a stop or "If clear, etc."

Additionally, 10.4.3 is not applicable. If you look at the range communication section:

8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” or “Unload and Show Clear” – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty.

(Emphasis mine)

Until the competitor does those actions, he/she is not considered to have finished shooting, regardless of where they aim the gun, unless their shot is deemed unsafe--in which case the DQ is for unsafe gunhandling, not for shooting during a reload.

Further:

“If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” or “If Clear, Cylinder Closed, Holster” for revolvers only – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). (Emphasis mine again)

The competitor is authorized to shoot until this command is given.

10.4.3's prohibitions at the beginning or the end of a COF only apply between "Make Ready" and the beep (beginning) and "If you are finished" and "If clear, hammer down and holster" (end).

I think I see what you're saying...that "unloading" doesn't actually apply until the RO gives the ULSC command.

My assumption was that 'unloading' could apply at any time during the CoF since the definition doesn't limit it to only happening after ULSC

I think that approach makes sense given the description of ULSC and the description of if clear, Hammer down & holster part. Although, the wording is slightly different between IPSc/USPSA, both rulebooks point back to 10.4.3 if a shot is fired after if clear, hammer down. USPSA uses 10.4.3 to prevent a competitor from continuing after if clera, hammer down and holster whereas IPSC uses 10.6.1 - USC. In either case, it makes sense that 10.4.3 only applies after if clear, hammer down and holster since that description refences back to 10.4.3 if a shot goes off.

Would the answer be different if he had given the ULSC command? Given that receiving the command doesn't prevent a competitor from continuing to shoot?

Edited April 17, 2014 by Onagoth

[DavidSnethkamp]

It is important to distinguish between two commands.

If finished, unload and show clear.

Vs

Unload and show clear.

If the first is issued, as would've at the "normal" presumed end of a stage. It is a question, not a command. There is nothing in that "command" to stop the shooter from continuing to shoot as much as they want, as long as it is safe.

If "unload and show clear" is given, it is a command, most likely following "stop"