a matt Posted April 8, 2014 Author Share Posted April 8, 2014 (edited) They didnt have a rule #. They just said I won't start them. Heck, really we won't until Thursdays if they make us stay out or one foot in. When I find out ill post what's going on. I'm not sure if my question is worth the effort really it's not some huge advantage one foot in one out. Edited April 8, 2014 by a matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Also keep in mind that MANY times the WSB that is posted online before the match gets edited by the match staff before the start of the match. So don't be surprised if the "Official" WSB that is read by the RO during the match further defines the start position requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueorb Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Here is a response from John Amidon regarding this. First the poster is wrong, he refers to the touching of something outside the shooting area as being outside the shooting, the rule he misunderstands is 10.2.1 which is procedurals while shooting. The WSB usually should state the start position is standing outside the shooting area, or toes touching the X,s while outside the shooting are, or they have a small fault line a couple of feet from the shooting area that is the start position. If folks would do these simple things in the WSB, it would solve these type of wrong posts. John Sarge - it appears you either are just wrong in this case or you are quoting the incorrect rule in trying to justify your answer. Based on John's response it appears that a shooter cannot be standing in the shooting area and just touch something out of the shooting area. Which makes absolutely no sense any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Here is a response from John Amidon regarding this. First the poster is wrong, he refers to the touching of something outside the shooting area as being outside the shooting, the rule he misunderstands is 10.2.1 which is procedurals while shooting. The WSB usually should state the start position is standing outside the shooting area, or toes touching the X,s while outside the shooting are, or they have a small fault line a couple of feet from the shooting area that is the start position. If folks would do these simple things in the WSB, it would solve these type of wrong posts. John Sarge - it appears you either are just wrong in this case or you are quoting the incorrect rule in trying to justify your answer. Based on John's response it appears that a shooter cannot be standing in the shooting area and just touch something out of the shooting area. Which makes absolutely no sense any way. Hmm, I'd say John's response doesn't do a whole lot to clarify the question. He tells us how to clarify the WSB, but not really how to proceed if the WSB is in fact vague. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueorb Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Here is a response from John Amidon regarding this. First the poster is wrong, he refers to the touching of something outside the shooting area as being outside the shooting, the rule he misunderstands is 10.2.1 which is procedurals while shooting. The WSB usually should state the start position is standing outside the shooting area, or toes touching the X,s while outside the shooting are, or they have a small fault line a couple of feet from the shooting area that is the start position. If folks would do these simple things in the WSB, it would solve these type of wrong posts. John Sarge - it appears you either are just wrong in this case or you are quoting the incorrect rule in trying to justify your answer. Based on John's response it appears that a shooter cannot be standing in the shooting area and just touch something out of the shooting area. Which makes absolutely no sense any way. Hmm, I'd say John's response doesn't do a whole lot to clarify the question. He tells us how to clarify the WSB, but not really how to proceed if the WSB is in fact vague. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Correct, he does not. That is probably because I was more interested in whether or not Sarge's assertion was correct. I would say you certainly can't stand IN the shooting area and just touch something OUT of the shooting area. Not sure what to say after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Think about it...you are either in or out. If one foot is out, then you are out of the shooting area. SO if the WSB does not specifically state "Both feet out" or "toes touching spots", etc, then the Ops question is answered. Correct. And if you're the RO or CRO at a major, and that topic didn't come up with the RM, the smart move would be to reach out for clarification. If he's fine with the "one foot in, one foot out" start, then you know how to proceed. If he's not fine, he gets to ask you if anyone else has done it, and if the answer is no, he can amend the WSB right then and there...... But the best process is to cover these items during the writing/approval of the WSBs and the staff walkthrough of the stages...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Well, we have a stage briefing at Area 6 that says standing outside the shooting area. I'll bet 1000 match federal SSP or a pound of N320 that our feet will be outside the shooting area and non of that I'm touching something outside stuff. Well, we have a stage briefing at Area 6 that says standing outside the shooting area. I'll bet 1000 match federal SSP or a pound of N320 that our feet will be outside the shooting area and non of that I'm touching something outside stuff. Sorry I didn't read all the responses, but both feet are going to be out. Out. Lol I have spoke to 5 different CRO the run the Nats all said they will not start anyone trying to start that way. I'd love to hear what rule they would use to back up that decision. Define it in the WSB, or cite a rule that does so. Anything else is pretty lame IMO. No need to cite a rule -- just call the RM and ask him if he wants to amend the WSB. No problem, as long as no one else has shot it that way.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Here is a response from John Amidon regarding this. First the poster is wrong, he refers to the touching of something outside the shooting area as being outside the shooting, the rule he misunderstands is 10.2.1 which is procedurals while shooting. The WSB usually should state the start position is standing outside the shooting area, or toes touching the X,s while outside the shooting are, or they have a small fault line a couple of feet from the shooting area that is the start position. If folks would do these simple things in the WSB, it would solve these type of wrong posts. John Sarge - it appears you either are just wrong in this case or you are quoting the incorrect rule in trying to justify your answer. Based on John's response it appears that a shooter cannot be standing in the shooting area and just touch something out of the shooting area. Which makes absolutely no sense any way. And one of the problems ROs encounter is that when the WSB is weakly written, they need to make a bunch of calls...... Hence it's usually best to call the RM..... When designing stages, be specific about the stuff you care about. If you truly don't care, be specific about that too -- "Standing anywhere inside the FFZ" or Standing anywhere, without any portion of the body touching the ground or props inside the FFZ....." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) Here is a response from John Amidon regarding this. First the poster is wrong, he refers to the touching of something outside the shooting area as being outside the shooting, the rule he misunderstands is 10.2.1 which is procedurals while shooting. The WSB usually should state the start position is standing outside the shooting area, or toes touching the X,s while outside the shooting are, or they have a small fault line a couple of feet from the shooting area that is the start position. If folks would do these simple things in the WSB, it would solve these type of wrong posts. John Sarge - it appears you either are just wrong in this case or you are quoting the incorrect rule in trying to justify your answer. Based on John's response it appears that a shooter cannot be standing in the shooting area and just touch something out of the shooting area. Which makes absolutely no sense any way. Hmm, I'd say John's response doesn't do a whole lot to clarify the question. He tells us how to clarify the WSB, but not really how to proceed if the WSB is in fact vague. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Correct, he does not. That is probably because I was more interested in whether or not Sarge's assertion was correct. I would say you certainly can't stand IN the shooting area and just touch something OUT of the shooting area. Not sure what to say after that. So what did he say about standing with one foot in and one foot out? Seems like you got fixated with me saying touching something. He also seemed to think the WSB leaves the door wide open to interpretation. Edited April 9, 2014 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 The WSB will be rewritten is my guess. Both the mentioned area 6 stages are weakly written. Take stage 10 for example. Even if the WSB is not rewritten a shooter who is on the ball will start up near the front fault line if the stage is laid out anywhere near the diagram. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Well, we have a stage briefing at Area 6 that says standing outside the shooting area. I'll bet 1000 match federal SSP or a pound of N320 that our feet will be outside the shooting area and non of that I'm touching something outside stuff. Well, we have a stage briefing at Area 6 that says standing outside the shooting area. I'll bet 1000 match federal SSP or a pound of N320 that our feet will be outside the shooting area and non of that I'm touching something outside stuff. Sorry I didn't read all the responses, but both feet are going to be out. Out. Lol I have spoke to 5 different CRO the run the Nats all said they will not start anyone trying to start that way. I'd love to hear what rule they would use to back up that decision. Define it in the WSB, or cite a rule that does so. Anything else is pretty lame IMO. No need to cite a rule -- just call the RM and ask him if he wants to amend the WSB. No problem, as long as no one else has shot it that way.... Exactly, it should never get to that point. The first guy who walks up and starts with one leg in and one out will have the RO totally dazed and confused. When he tries to make them do it his way the shooter will call for the RM. If the RO is on the ball he will call for the RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueorb Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Here is a response from John Amidon regarding this. First the poster is wrong, he refers to the touching of something outside the shooting area as being outside the shooting, the rule he misunderstands is 10.2.1 which is procedurals while shooting. The WSB usually should state the start position is standing outside the shooting area, or toes touching the X,s while outside the shooting are, or they have a small fault line a couple of feet from the shooting area that is the start position. If folks would do these simple things in the WSB, it would solve these type of wrong posts. John Sarge - it appears you either are just wrong in this case or you are quoting the incorrect rule in trying to justify your answer. Based on John's response it appears that a shooter cannot be standing in the shooting area and just touch something out of the shooting area. Which makes absolutely no sense any way. Hmm, I'd say John's response doesn't do a whole lot to clarify the question. He tells us how to clarify the WSB, but not really how to proceed if the WSB is in fact vague. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Correct, he does not. That is probably because I was more interested in whether or not Sarge's assertion was correct. I would say you certainly can't stand IN the shooting area and just touch something OUT of the shooting area. Not sure what to say after that. So what did he say about standing with one foot in and one foot out? Seems like you got fixated with me saying touching something. He also seemed to think the WSB leaves the door wide open to interpretation. Unfortunately, he didn't say anything else. I quoted exactly what he said. I pointed him to this thread so I was kind of hoping he would post (does he ever post here?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Here is a response from John Amidon regarding this. First the poster is wrong, he refers to the touching of something outside the shooting area as being outside the shooting, the rule he misunderstands is 10.2.1 which is procedurals while shooting. The WSB usually should state the start position is standing outside the shooting area, or toes touching the X,s while outside the shooting are, or they have a small fault line a couple of feet from the shooting area that is the start position. If folks would do these simple things in the WSB, it would solve these type of wrong posts. John Sarge - it appears you either are just wrong in this case or you are quoting the incorrect rule in trying to justify your answer. Based on John's response it appears that a shooter cannot be standing in the shooting area and just touch something out of the shooting area. Which makes absolutely no sense any way. Hmm, I'd say John's response doesn't do a whole lot to clarify the question. He tells us how to clarify the WSB, but not really how to proceed if the WSB is in fact vague. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Correct, he does not. That is probably because I was more interested in whether or not Sarge's assertion was correct. I would say you certainly can't stand IN the shooting area and just touch something OUT of the shooting area. Not sure what to say after that. So what did he say about standing with one foot in and one foot out? Seems like you got fixated with me saying touching something. He also seemed to think the WSB leaves the door wide open to interpretation. Unfortunately, he didn't say anything else. I quoted exactly what he said. I pointed him to this thread so I was kind of hoping he would post (does he ever post here?). I only hope you were somewhat tactful when you asked him the question because he likes to put them in front sight. Every time I ask him something these days I always tell him not to publish it. Kind of CS if you ask me. Not that I'm wrong or anything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 I don't think you need to be on the ball to figure that one. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueorb Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) Here is a response from John Amidon regarding this. First the poster is wrong, he refers to the touching of something outside the shooting area as being outside the shooting, the rule he misunderstands is 10.2.1 which is procedurals while shooting. The WSB usually should state the start position is standing outside the shooting area, or toes touching the X,s while outside the shooting are, or they have a small fault line a couple of feet from the shooting area that is the start position. If folks would do these simple things in the WSB, it would solve these type of wrong posts. John Sarge - it appears you either are just wrong in this case or you are quoting the incorrect rule in trying to justify your answer. Based on John's response it appears that a shooter cannot be standing in the shooting area and just touch something out of the shooting area. Which makes absolutely no sense any way. Hmm, I'd say John's response doesn't do a whole lot to clarify the question. He tells us how to clarify the WSB, but not really how to proceed if the WSB is in fact vague. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Correct, he does not. That is probably because I was more interested in whether or not Sarge's assertion was correct. I would say you certainly can't stand IN the shooting area and just touch something OUT of the shooting area. Not sure what to say after that. So what did he say about standing with one foot in and one foot out? Seems like you got fixated with me saying touching something. He also seemed to think the WSB leaves the door wide open to interpretation. Unfortunately, he didn't say anything else. I quoted exactly what he said. I pointed him to this thread so I was kind of hoping he would post (does he ever post here?). I only hope you were somewhat tactful when you asked him the question because he likes to put them in front sight. Every time I ask him something these days I always tell him not to publish it. Kind of CS if you ask me. Not that I'm wrong or anything! Edited. My fault. Edited April 9, 2014 by blueorb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I don't think you need to be on the ball to figure that one. Lol Matt, I really think you need to take the, "Gamer's guide to shooting USPSA". Even at our local matches most of the regular shooters carry a copy in their range bag. It's published by USPSA. Some call it the Rule book too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Here is a response from John Amidon regarding this. First the poster is wrong, he refers to the touching of something outside the shooting area as being outside the shooting, the rule he misunderstands is 10.2.1 which is procedurals while shooting. The WSB usually should state the start position is standing outside the shooting area, or toes touching the X,s while outside the shooting are, or they have a small fault line a couple of feet from the shooting area that is the start position. If folks would do these simple things in the WSB, it would solve these type of wrong posts. John Sarge - it appears you either are just wrong in this case or you are quoting the incorrect rule in trying to justify your answer. Based on John's response it appears that a shooter cannot be standing in the shooting area and just touch something out of the shooting area. Which makes absolutely no sense any way. Hmm, I'd say John's response doesn't do a whole lot to clarify the question. He tells us how to clarify the WSB, but not really how to proceed if the WSB is in fact vague. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Correct, he does not. That is probably because I was more interested in whether or not Sarge's assertion was correct. I would say you certainly can't stand IN the shooting area and just touch something OUT of the shooting area. Not sure what to say after that. So what did he say about standing with one foot in and one foot out? Seems like you got fixated with me saying touching something. He also seemed to think the WSB leaves the door wide open to interpretation. Unfortunately, he didn't say anything else. I quoted exactly what he said. I pointed him to this thread so I was kind of hoping he would post (does he ever post here?). I only hope you were somewhat tactful when you asked him the question because he likes to put them in front sight. Every time I ask him something these days I always tell him not to publish it. Kind of CS if you ask me. Not that I'm wrong or anything! So, you think that me asking John a question is chicken shit? LOL....ok. You were wrong. Don't state your incorrect opinion as fact if you don't want to get questioned on it. Quite a leap. Publishing in a magazine without somebody being aware is CS. Not you asking a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueorb Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) Here is a response from John Amidon regarding this. First the poster is wrong, he refers to the touching of something outside the shooting area as being outside the shooting, the rule he misunderstands is 10.2.1 which is procedurals while shooting. The WSB usually should state the start position is standing outside the shooting area, or toes touching the X,s while outside the shooting are, or they have a small fault line a couple of feet from the shooting area that is the start position. If folks would do these simple things in the WSB, it would solve these type of wrong posts. John Sarge - it appears you either are just wrong in this case or you are quoting the incorrect rule in trying to justify your answer. Based on John's response it appears that a shooter cannot be standing in the shooting area and just touch something out of the shooting area. Which makes absolutely no sense any way. Hmm, I'd say John's response doesn't do a whole lot to clarify the question. He tells us how to clarify the WSB, but not really how to proceed if the WSB is in fact vague. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Correct, he does not. That is probably because I was more interested in whether or not Sarge's assertion was correct. I would say you certainly can't stand IN the shooting area and just touch something OUT of the shooting area. Not sure what to say after that. So what did he say about standing with one foot in and one foot out? Seems like you got fixated with me saying touching something. He also seemed to think the WSB leaves the door wide open to interpretation. Unfortunately, he didn't say anything else. I quoted exactly what he said. I pointed him to this thread so I was kind of hoping he would post (does he ever post here?). I only hope you were somewhat tactful when you asked him the question because he likes to put them in front sight. Every time I ask him something these days I always tell him not to publish it. Kind of CS if you ask me. Not that I'm wrong or anything! So, you think that me asking John a question is chicken shit? LOL....ok. You were wrong. Don't state your incorrect opinion as fact if you don't want to get questioned on it. Quite a leap. Publishing in a magazine without somebody being aware is CS. Not you asking a question. My apologies. Yes, that was a leap. It's so hard to read between the lines on line. i edited my post out. Edited April 9, 2014 by blueorb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Here is a response from John Amidon regarding this. First the poster is wrong, he refers to the touching of something outside the shooting area as being outside the shooting, the rule he misunderstands is 10.2.1 which is procedurals while shooting. The WSB usually should state the start position is standing outside the shooting area, or toes touching the X,s while outside the shooting are, or they have a small fault line a couple of feet from the shooting area that is the start position. If folks would do these simple things in the WSB, it would solve these type of wrong posts. John Sarge - it appears you either are just wrong in this case or you are quoting the incorrect rule in trying to justify your answer. Based on John's response it appears that a shooter cannot be standing in the shooting area and just touch something out of the shooting area. Which makes absolutely no sense any way. Hmm, I'd say John's response doesn't do a whole lot to clarify the question. He tells us how to clarify the WSB, but not really how to proceed if the WSB is in fact vague. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Correct, he does not. That is probably because I was more interested in whether or not Sarge's assertion was correct. I would say you certainly can't stand IN the shooting area and just touch something OUT of the shooting area. Not sure what to say after that. So what did he say about standing with one foot in and one foot out? Seems like you got fixated with me saying touching something. He also seemed to think the WSB leaves the door wide open to interpretation. Unfortunately, he didn't say anything else. I quoted exactly what he said. I pointed him to this thread so I was kind of hoping he would post (does he ever post here?). I only hope you were somewhat tactful when you asked him the question because he likes to put them in front sight. Every time I ask him something these days I always tell him not to publish it. Kind of CS if you ask me. Not that I'm wrong or anything! So, you think that me asking John a question is chicken shit? LOL....ok. You were wrong. Don't state your incorrect opinion as fact if you don't want to get questioned on it. Quite a leap. Publishing in a magazine without somebody being aware is CS. Not you asking a question. My apologies. Yes, that was a leap. It's so hard to read between the lines on line. i edited my post out. No harm done. I love spirited debate but it takes a lot for me to call somebody names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) I'm wait on them to puplish the new one. But from what I'm reading the rule book in the a bag doesn't mean a lot when you don't follow it and make up crazy stuff about touching something or what ever that was about. Maybe i should read the book again from a gaming stand point. Edited April 9, 2014 by a matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Maybe i should read the book again from a gaming stand point.Yup! That's how I found out I could shoot over walls if the WSB doesn't say I can't! Good stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 That's how we play the game. Gotta love it, I do. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Maybe i should read the book again from a gaming stand point. On a serious note. If you do that it will really help you with stage design. If you know every trick in the book you can make iron clad WSB's. It's fun to try to figure out how to beat a stage designer using the rules(GGTSUSPSA). It's also fun to build a stage that nobody can crack, but that rarely happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 Thanks for all the info .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 You really have to focus with an open mind when you setup stages and write WSB's. Sometimes I setup a stage while thinking about my intent on how it will be shot, not realizing or seeing it from another perspective. Then on match day, the gamers run a truck through it. I just take it with a grain of salt and add it to my list of things learned. Setting up a stage is easy...learning to bullet proof it (no pun intended) is the real art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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