Am I over thinking things?

[jayhkr]

NIK does have a point. No offense to the OP but we are talking to a very inexperienced loader here. We can't just keep telling him to bury the bullet deeper and deeper without considering lowering the powder charge. If he is using one of those little fat headed sns bullets then he is going to have to go mighty short to make it work. The 124 rn looks like it goes out pretty far before starting to curve. The easiest thing to do is make a dummy and keep shortening it until it spins freely in the chamber and work out from there. Crimp to about .375-376, don't worry about a shiny ring, just remove the bell like youngeyes suggests and throw your calipers on there. Reloading quality, safe, accurate ammo is an acquired skill and takes some practice. Keep us updated on your progress and we will help you every step of the way.

THAT'S WHY I LOVE IT HERE! It's because of everyone here that gives support and understanding to guys like me who are, for obvious reasons, frustrated and nervous. I think I might go back down in a bit and keep treking along to see how short I really have to go for them to spin. I'll come back up with updates, and maybe a few pictures to boot, because it's going to look awefully funny being able to barely see any projectile protruding from the case!.

[jayhkr]

As long as you dont have to push the bullet to fully seat in the chamber, and then it will fall out freely you are fine (plunk test). I would start long (SAAMI max) on a dummy (no primer or powder) and then make sure it drops into the chamber as stated above. Then make sure they work in your mags. Also as stated in a few posts, check the overall dims of your rounds and make sure they are matching with SAAMI (you have a few books right? Lyman, Speer, Hornady ect?). Maybe also ditch the lead bullets while you are learning and get some regular FMJ, RN ect. to learn on as they are a bit more forgiving in the loading process.

I will look into other FMJ once I get caught back up from speding all the money I just did. Got 1000 of these for just under $70 shipped. Any suggestions on FMJ for not much more than these? LOL but I do understand what you're saying, I just thought these would save a few "start up" funds. Thank you though!

[jayhkr]

Both my XD and XDm had very short chambers. I had to seat most any bullet that was not a plated or jacketed round nose down to 1.090 to get them to pass the plunk test before I had the barrels throated. A slight reduction in powder was all it took and they both shot well at this OAL. It's a lot easier to just accept that the gun has a short chamber and load for it than let it frustrate you and shut you down. neither gun shot any better throated than before. The easiest cure for the whole situation here would be as stated above, change the bullet to a different type and the problem is solved.

Lesson learned on these bullets, but I won't have any funds for new bullets for a little while. I'd like to continue using these till they are used up. How low would you suggest I go using titegroup? 3.6 is starting grain for 1.125. So maybe 3.2-3.3 depending on just how lowI will be?

[Nebwake]

As long as you dont have to push the bullet to fully seat in the chamber, and then it will fall out freely you are fine (plunk test). I would start long (SAAMI max) on a dummy (no primer or powder) and then make sure it drops into the chamber as stated above. Then make sure they work in your mags. Also as stated in a few posts, check the overall dims of your rounds and make sure they are matching with SAAMI (you have a few books right? Lyman, Speer, Hornady ect?). Maybe also ditch the lead bullets while you are learning and get some regular FMJ, RN ect. to learn on as they are a bit more forgiving in the loading process.

I will look into other FMJ once I get caught back up from speding all the money I just did. Got 1000 of these for just under $70 shipped. Any suggestions on FMJ for not much more than these? LOL but I do understand what you're saying, I just thought these would save a few "start up" funds. Thank you though!

Precision Delta or Montana gold. If you buy in bulk you can get them down to about $.10 each. Also be pretty careful with titegroup. Its such a low volume powder that it can be easy to miss a squib, or doublecharge (although with an SDB you would be more likely to throw a squib) Make sure you look at each and every powder drop before you place the bullet. Also, I am guessing you dont have a chrono? Be careful loading shorter than SAAMI with lighter than advertized drops without a chrono, take it SLOW and listen and feel for the chance of a squib. Also make sure you are using the lead info in the books for your powder drops.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Nebwake

[RDA]

I have read all your posts in multiple threads, I think you need to do what has been said multiple times. You first need to determine the COAL before going any further. Once you know that, there will be a dozen guys here that can help you with next steps including powder.

[jayhkr]

OK! Houston we have lift off! Sorry for all the trouble everyone, you can't imagine the stress I put on myself with this. Sometimes I let the best of it get to me. Here are my specs that work in my barrels, plunk and twist.

OAL: 1.100-1.104"

Crimp: .377

Funny when I started all of this I had measured at 1.09 and it failed, I was SO close. I made triple and quadruple sure that everything was set properly and ran 12 bullets and each of them came out to spec and accepted the barrel test. I wanted to be sure to run the press with all 4 stations filled as I know running it 1 at a time can mess things up too. So now it's just down to powder drop. Data shows Titegroups at 1.125" to be 3.4-4. So I was leaning towards 3.2-3.3 to start out with. Anyone have suggestions. I know TG is hotter than other powders, but it's the only handgun powder my LGS has in stock and I don't want to bulk order other powders until I know what I like in smaller amounts.

I'm just so relieved I got this part figured out with the awesome help of you folks here. Again, I'm sorry for causing such a ruckus but you can't imagine how frustrating it was to read everything I did, watch all the video's and have this happen to me. Everything I read said to watch out for OAL and not go to short due to pressures.....so put yourself in my shoes and think of that stress that I put myself in. It's just not me shooting, but my wife as well and her well being. So I got a little frustrated and I think it showed with my numerous posts. Thank you everyone for helping through this! Drinks are on me!

[RDA]

OK! Houston we have lift off! Sorry for all the trouble everyone, you can't imagine the stress I put on myself with this. Sometimes I let the best of it get to me. Here are my specs that work in my barrels, plunk and twist.

OAL: 1.100-1.104"

Crimp: .377

Funny when I started all of this I had measured at 1.09 and it failed, I was SO close. I made triple and quadruple sure that everything was set properly and ran 12 bullets and each of them came out to spec and accepted the barrel test. I wanted to be sure to run the press with all 4 stations filled as I know running it 1 at a time can mess things up too. So now it's just down to powder drop. Data shows Titegroups at 1.125" to be 3.4-4. So I was leaning towards 3.2-3.3 to start out with. Anyone have suggestions. I know TG is hotter than other powders, but it's the only handgun powder my LGS has in stock and I don't want to bulk order other powders until I know what I like in smaller amounts.

I'm just so relieved I got this part figured out with the awesome help of you folks here. Again, I'm sorry for causing such a ruckus but you can't imagine how frustrating it was to read everything I did, watch all the video's and have this happen to me. Everything I read said to watch out for OAL and not go to short due to pressures.....so put yourself in my shoes and think of that stress that I put myself in. It's just not me shooting, but my wife as well and her well being. So I got a little frustrated and I think it showed with my numerous posts. Thank you everyone for helping through this! Drinks are on me!

In all your reading though you missed out on a couple of salient points to your situation.

- You have to determine COAL first for your guns. That COAL may be shorter than the COAL that the powder/bullet/manufacturer used to determine their reference loads.

- Many 9mm loads have a COAL shorter than what you ultimately came up with (1.100-1.104"), I have seen them at 1.060 and 1.070 for example (Hornady 124g XTP or Hornady 115g HAP, respectively). It depends on your bullet shape, powder type and powder charge. SAAMI specifies a range of 1.000 - 1.169 for example, your COAL is in the top half still.

Your concern about going too short is valid, I don't believe you are too short at 1.100. How many grains does it take before the load begins to be compressed with your case/bullet combination?

If the data you are referencing has a range of 3.4-4.0 of TG at 1.125 and you are going to use a COAL of 1.100, I'd go ahead and start with 3.4 and work up from there. What kind of bullet was specified for that data by the way?

Congrats on getting over this hurdle, I'll have a dirty martini or draft beer when you are ready.

[jayhkr]

OK! Houston we have lift off! Sorry for all the trouble everyone, you can't imagine the stress I put on myself with this. Sometimes I let the best of it get to me. Here are my specs that work in my barrels, plunk and twist.

OAL: 1.100-1.104"

Crimp: .377

Funny when I started all of this I had measured at 1.09 and it failed, I was SO close. I made triple and quadruple sure that everything was set properly and ran 12 bullets and each of them came out to spec and accepted the barrel test. I wanted to be sure to run the press with all 4 stations filled as I know running it 1 at a time can mess things up too. So now it's just down to powder drop. Data shows Titegroups at 1.125" to be 3.4-4. So I was leaning towards 3.2-3.3 to start out with. Anyone have suggestions. I know TG is hotter than other powders, but it's the only handgun powder my LGS has in stock and I don't want to bulk order other powders until I know what I like in smaller amounts.

I'm just so relieved I got this part figured out with the awesome help of you folks here. Again, I'm sorry for causing such a ruckus but you can't imagine how frustrating it was to read everything I did, watch all the video's and have this happen to me. Everything I read said to watch out for OAL and not go to short due to pressures.....so put yourself in my shoes and think of that stress that I put myself in. It's just not me shooting, but my wife as well and her well being. So I got a little frustrated and I think it showed with my numerous posts. Thank you everyone for helping through this! Drinks are on me!

In all your reading though you missed out on a couple of salient points to your situation.

- You have to determine COAL first for your guns. That COAL may be shorter than the COAL that the powder/bullet/manufacturer used to determine their reference loads.

- Many 9mm loads have a COAL shorter than what you ultimately came up with (1.100-1.104"), I have seen them at 1.060 and 1.070 for example (Hornady 124g XTP or Hornady 115g HAP, respectively). It depends on your bullet shape, powder type and powder charge. SAAMI specifies a range of 1.000 - 1.169 for example, your COAL is in the top half still.

Your concern about going too short is valid, I don't believe you are too short at 1.100. How many grains does it take before the load begins to be compressed with your case/bullet combination?

If the data you are referencing has a range of 3.4-4.0 of TG at 1.125 and you are going to use a COAL of 1.100, I'd go ahead and start with 3.4 and work up from there. What kind of bullet was specified for that data by the way?

Congrats on getting over this hurdle, I'll have a dirty martini or draft beer when you are ready.

The bullet info from Hodgdon is with the 125gr Lead bullet. I thought I did figure out my OAL with doing the plunk and twist test.....now this is where I get confused again if I did something wrong. I mean I'm learning that different bullets will have me have different OAL for my particular barrel if that's what you mean? So my 1.100" length isn't that out of "whack" to continue to use the prescribed load amounts? I haven't put powder in the cases yet as that was my last step....for obvious reasons. I guess my other question would be how do I know what a compressed load feels like? Are there obvious signs on the case?

I guess all the reading and watching video's didn't teach me the finer points of loading. That goodness for you guys here. Seriously NONE of the books, manuals or video's said anything about ANY of this stuff. Hence my previous frustrations. I think I need to make a donation to the Brian Enos Forum Fund!

[Sandbagger123]

your issue is the shape of the bullet and throat of your barrels. the SNS looks like the same mold used by Missouri bullets. they start rounding way at the top. I really dislike this shape as it usually requires them to be seated deeper as you have found out.

If these were my bullets I would either work with them or sell them and buy true plated or FMJ. Follow the advice of the other to determine what the OAL will work in your gun. Start low and work up, perferably with the help of a chrono.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Keep going deeper until they will freely rotate Once you find the OAL for your particular gun & bullet, then work up a safe load.

So even if I'm down to 1" you're saying that's ok?

FIRST, you are going to establish the maximum OAL of your load - no powder.... THEN WORK UP SAFE LOAD. so YES, let's see how deep you have to go until you can plunk and spin the cartridge - NO POWDER YET>

2n step is to determine how much powder to add.

[G17]

As i mentioned the first thing you should be doing is determine what the max oal for that barrel and bullet is. Once you determine that you can rule out whether your oal is too long or it's a problem with the case. I think it's a problem with the case. Again, here is the linkhttp://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.msg189131#msg189131 Do this, and get back to us with what you find.

Read it, tried it, the bullet didn't seat any deeper. I flaired the mouth, seated the bullet and pushed it in until it was even with the top of the barrel, but when I go to remove the bullet, it either pulls it back out to the original depth or something else because I don't get any different of a reading OAL wise when I do this. Thanks for the link though, very informative.

The article said nothing about flairing the mouth. All you wanted was a piece of unsized brass that would firmly grip the bullet but still let it slide through. You may have to test multiple unsized brass to get the one that will do this. It needs to fit snug because as you slowly push the back of the headstamp into the chamber it's pushing the bullet into the case, then when the case finally bottoms out in the chamber if you slowly back it out with your fingers wherever that bullet is minus maybe .015 would be your max OAL.

If the mouth was flaired when you tried to do what the article said i'm not sure how the bullet would stay still for you to get an accurate reading.

Anyway, it sounds as if you got things working, so regardless congrats. Hope everything keeps going smooth for ya.

[tbrtt1]

Have you measured your finished cartridges and compared that to the SAAMI specs? Are you sure that the bullet not turning is from the bullet and not the case/cartridge? I wouldn't rely on a shiny ring to determine my crimp (though this may be a good thing to look at once you get your press set up properly). Measure it. SAAMI specs are .380 at the mouth and that would be the max. What does yours measure? Most folks reloading 9mm aim for .376-.378 range. I like my around .378. I would also use the same headstamp brass for getting your measurements set up (you may already be doing this). Your range of OALs seem OK to me. Are your calipers good? Got the right resizing die in there? Just food for thought. Your problem does seem strange if you load jacketed and they pass the plunk test but these do not. Maybe just don't use those bullets. Here is a link to SAAMI specs:http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

My spec at the mout has been reading between .377-.378. I did see that different headstamps gave me way different readings and some of them didn't even pass the case gage AT ALL. My calipers are the digital ones from cabelas and the measured the factory ammo just fine. Sizing die was preinstalled at the factory from Dillon for the SDB. (FOOOOOD!) I wish it was a simple as not using them, but I have 1,000 of them and can't really return them. Thank you for the link and feedback!

Just my 2 cents, I wouldn't necessarily trust where the factory set the sizing die. Typically one would raise the ram and screw down the die until it touches the shell plate then lock it down. slight adjustment may be necessary after that.

Looks like from your latest posts that you have things going. Just start slow and try to enjoy working up loads. That was my approach and it kept me from going too fast and getting impatient when finding a good load. Most of my initial loads didn't quite cycle my gun.

[RDA]

The bullet info from Hodgdon is with the 125gr Lead bullet. I thought I did figure out my OAL with doing the plunk and twist test.....now this is where I get confused again if I did something wrong. I mean I'm learning that different bullets will have me have different OAL for my particular barrel if that's what you mean? So my 1.100" length isn't that out of "whack" to continue to use the prescribed load amounts? I haven't put powder in the cases yet as that was my last step....for obvious reasons. I guess my other question would be how do I know what a compressed load feels like? Are there obvious signs on the case?

OK, that is what I suspected (data from Hodgon). Did you happen to notice on that data from Hodgon that it was for a 125g LCN? Do you know what LCN stands for and why it is relevant?

1.100 is a very typical 9mm COAL, I have loaded thousands of 9mm rounds at that length and run them through my Glock 19 (albeit with 115g FMJ RN and Win 231). You need to first understand your reference data and how it relates (and doesn't relate) to your particular load development.

You can determine when loads would be compressed by doing some measurements, you need to do more reading/searching on that but I believe we are getting ahead of ourselves on that one based on the challenges you had in determining your COAL.

I guess all the reading and watching video's didn't teach me the finer points of loading. That goodness for you guys here. Seriously NONE of the books, manuals or video's said anything about ANY of this stuff. Hence my previous frustrations. I think I need to make a donation to the Brian Enos Forum Fund!

By the way, I am a reloading newb compared to most on this forum with many years of experience. But I have loaded and shot my fair share already and read/retain a lot from those that have years more experience than I do...

[rtp]

I think we're confusing him, including on steps he's actually done.

1. Determine max OAL for your bullet/barrel combination. See the link to CZfirearms. Ideally do the test a few times to allow for bullet movement when removing from barrel..you don't need to flare or size the case used, just grab a few already fired and find one that will accept a bullet in it slightly snugly. Subtract a few thousandths off of the confirmed max bullet/barrel OAL and call that your max load to OAL. If you have multiple guns, check each to determine max loadable OAL across your guns.

2. Determine powder load. Some manuals will have relatively 'useful' OALs given, others SAAMI max (1.169" for 9mm). It's pretty much a footnote, as you can't go over YOUR max loadable OAL for bullet/barrel combo, but good to note if they're showing a shorter OAL as it gives some confirmation if you're also needing to load short. Find a similar projectile. In the worst case, if you can only find a match for a higher weight but otherwise similar bullet, you can use their loads, as heavier bullets (of like construction) will always be lower charges than the same in lighter. In this case, you can find 125gr LCN (conical nose, usually seated deeper than RN) data - I'd call this quite close enough, as long as you start at the low end and work up.

3. Determining 'crimp'/de-flare. Take your bullet, and note roughly where it will sit in the case at your decided on OAL. Measure width of the projectile there with calibers. Let's say it's .356. Now, measure the case wall thickness for the brass you're loading in two places or double the number of one measurement. Add together. That's your ideal 'crimp' (really, flare removal), nothing more, nothing less. For most, this comes out in the .377-.378" range, but worth checking. May be worth checking 'surrounding' bullets (e.g. jacketed vs lead, lower and higher weight) to get an idea if the load data you're about to use seems consistent (lead loads lower than jacketed, lighter bullets = more powder, heavier bullets = less powder). In this case, you can see a load range for TG with 125gr LCN from 3.6gr-4gr. You can also see a Sierra FMJ 125gr w/TG at 4.1-4.4gr. I'd say the LCN data is in the right ballpark based on that.

Decide if you're going to load a number of test loads, and if so, how many of each. As your OAL is shorter than listed data, I'd consider starting load at 3.4gr instead of 3.6, so maybe load 10each at 3.4, 3.6, and 3.8gr, label each obviously to avoid mixup, then go shoot starting at 3.6, and completely ignore max load, unless you have a chrono and a strong indication that you 'need' to go hotter for some reason (e.g. very low velocity, perhaps - don't expect to match book data, but you shouldn't be hundreds of fps slower in pistol, either). Check for any signs of 'badness,' in primers, in feel, and note relative accuracy. If you feel that a load 'feels hot' and you have no chrono, but your start load cycles your gun and is accurate, well - stick with it until you can beg, borrow, or buy a $100 ProChrono..or roll the dice. Generally less concern when you have an exact match for load data, but YMMV.

[98sr20ve]

Keep it simple.

1) I load my 143 gr bullet in 9mm to 1.080" So your 1.1XX is just fine as long as you start low on the charge and work it up. Use a OAL that allows the loaded round to drop in the chamber freely with out touching the rifling. It sounds like your just now on the edge of that so I would shorten it .005 or .010 and call it good.

2) Measuring crimp is a PITA. Just remove the flare. If your trying to get a measurement on crimp to .001 your gonna drive yourself nuts. Add crimp till the flare is gone. You can use your calipers to measure with the wide part of the jaws at the flare and then with the narrow part just below the flare. If there is not difference you are fine. Even a .001/2 difference of remaining flare is ussually better then going the other way and adding flare or crimp to were it creases the bullet.

After that your ready to test. Start low and work it up in groups of 10 rds.

[jayhkr]

Great info here guys! I think my plan will be to start at 3.4gr and work my up slowly as RTP suggested to 3.8gr. However I need to test these rounds in both my handguns so I might load a few more than what 98sr20ve suggested per grain. I will do a slightly shorter seat (.005-.010) too and I think my crimp is pretty good where it's at now.

I'll start with those and report back after I head to the range next time.

So unless I missed something that's what I'm running with: OAL 1.100-1.104, 3.4-3.8gr Titegroup and the biggest sigh of relief I can get out. I don't think I've ever been happier to have a day where I GO to work to get my mind off things! But seriously, without you guys, and the support you've all given me I couldn't had kept my hair on my head.

Edited February 28, 2014 by jayhkr

[atbarr]

Check out http://bayoubullets.net/9mm.html Donnie's 124 gr. RN is .072. I run his 200 SWC in my G21, after almost 3,000 rds. the barrel (after only a mop) is absolutely clean.

[jayhkr]

Yep I looked at them and Berry's. Berry's offers free shipping over $75 so I might go with 1k of his next. Thank you for the link. THey may be next after them!

[jayhkr]

Check out http://bayoubullets.net/9mm.html Donnie's 124 gr. RN is .072. I run his 200 SWC in my G21, after almost 3,000 rds. the barrel (after only a mop) is absolutely clean.

Just curious, are you using your stock barrel in your G21 or an aftermarket? Reason I ask is Glock's aren't that lead friendly in stock barrels and I wasn't sure if the coating on the Bayou Bullets messed anything up in the barrels? I'm already second guessing using the SNS coated ones in my G19.....last thing I want to deal with on top of everything else is lead fouling. Thinking of making a purchase Monday on a different type of bullet so it's probably between Berry's and Bayou 124gr.

[jmorris]

Any time I have asked myself if I am over thinking something I likely am; however, I have almost never hurt myself in the process.

[Steve RA]

You might also consider the BBI 125 Gr.

http://shop.blackbulletsinternational.com/9-125gr-500-9-125-500QTY.htm?categoryId=1

[jayhkr]

Any time I have asked myself if I am over thinking something I likely am; however, I have almost never hurt myself in the process.

That's what I'm trying to be sure of, not only my own safety, but my wife's as well since she will be shooting with me as well.

You might also consider the BBI 125 Gr.

http://shop.blackbulletsinternational.com/9-125gr-500-9-125-500QTY.htm?categoryId=1

Thank you Steve! Heard lots about them too. Checking them out now!

[atbarr]

Check out http://bayoubullets.net/9mm.html Donnie's 124 gr. RN is .072. I run his 200 SWC in my G21, after almost 3,000 rds. the barrel (after only a mop) is absolutely clean.

Just curious, are you using your stock barrel in your G21 or an aftermarket? Reason I ask is Glock's aren't that lead friendly in stock barrels and I wasn't sure if the coating on the Bayou Bullets messed anything up in the barrels? I'm already second guessing using the SNS coated ones in my G19.....last thing I want to deal with on top of everything else is lead fouling. Thinking of making a purchase Monday on a different type of bullet so it's probably between Berry's and Bayou 124gr.

Stock barrel.

[jayhkr]

As i mentioned the first thing you should be doing is determine what the max oal for that barrel and bullet is. Once you determine that you can rule out whether your oal is too long or it's a problem with the case. I think it's a problem with the case. Again, here is the linkhttp://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.msg189131#msg189131 Do this, and get back to us with what you find.

Read it, tried it, the bullet didn't seat any deeper. I flaired the mouth, seated the bullet and pushed it in until it was even with the top of the barrel, but when I go to remove the bullet, it either pulls it back out to the original depth or something else because I don't get any different of a reading OAL wise when I do this. Thanks for the link though, very informative.

The article said nothing about flairing the mouth. All you wanted was a piece of unsized brass that would firmly grip the bullet but still let it slide through. You may have to test multiple unsized brass to get the one that will do this. It needs to fit snug because as you slowly push the back of the headstamp into the chamber it's pushing the bullet into the case, then when the case finally bottoms out in the chamber if you slowly back it out with your fingers wherever that bullet is minus maybe .015 would be your max OAL.

If the mouth was flaired when you tried to do what the article said i'm not sure how the bullet would stay still for you to get an accurate reading.

Anyway, it sounds as if you got things working, so regardless congrats. Hope everything keeps going smooth for ya.

So I spent a little more time downstairs trying this COAL thing with pushing the bullet into the barrel, I probably went through 15-20 and they all "popped" back out, it's like something is grabbing a hold of the bullet and not letting go. I got tired and figured I'd get a big ol' handful of brass and bullets and go at it tomorrow. They just are to tight for me to pull them out with my fingers. ONLY way I was able to get them out with out "disturbing" the seating was to push them out from the muzzle end of the barrel. Of course I could had been seating them deeper this way too. I'll keep at it, probably going to stop by Cabela's this week and see if there is anyone there that is fluent in reloading and talk with them. Might take the barrel, few pieces of brass and bullets with me so I can get visuals on all this too. You guys have been great, but I'm starting to lose sleep over this stuff now and I just want to get past it. Hell, while I'm up there I'll probably pickup a 250ct of Berry's Plated bullets and try them out too with all the step listed above. But that I'm sure will be for another post......you guys are going to be so sick of me when this is over, I'll be shunned for good I'm sure.

[Steve RA]

Load up 20 or 30 with what you determined to pass the "plunk and twist" test. " OAL: 1.100-1.104"

Crimp: .377"

Use the 3.4 grains of powder.

Don't do anything else until you go shoot those !!!

When they work, you can then load up a bunch more and shoot them.

You are not only "overthinking" something that is relatively simple but you seem to be losing sleep over it.