Vince Pinto Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Um ... what do custom built competition guns (with optics, compensators and specially crafted dustcovers and mag wells to allow them to stand safely) have to do with practically and bedside tables? Can you keep a straight face when suggesting that guns with "specially crafted dustcovers and mag wells" are safe when propped erect on a table, particularly one exposed to the elements? I'm not an engineer, but I was taught in my 3rd grade class that objects are most stable when they're laid to rest on their largest surface area and/or when their centre of gravity is closest to the surface on which they're placed. Given that we're dealing with top heavy, loaded guns, going the extra mile is probably a good thing, especially in highly litigious countries, don't you think? Anyway, I know many people who use custom guns for home defence, but none of them prop them upright on their muzzle and magwell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 O.K., I'll ask the other question ---- What do bedside tables and home storage of firearms have to do with a discussion of the legality and potential ramifications of a gun starting position in our game? I'm not ROing anyone in their homes..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Nik, If you read my earlier comment, I made two statements: (1) The practice is unsafe: "The difference between us is that I maintain that placing a loaded gun propped upright on it's muzzle and mag well is patently unsafe, regardless of the circumstances. For me, this is not only an accident waiting to happen, .... and (2) The practice is not practical: .... it's also not practical, because I'm absolutely 100% certain that nobody ever stores their gun at home on their bedside table in such a manner." and I have no qualms whatsoever i standing alone on these issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Vince, I read both of your comments. As to #1 I'm not convinced that it's always unsafe, but I'm willing to concede that the situation needs a ton of attention, if one is to allow that start position. It's crystal clear that you don't want anything to do with any stage that permits an upright gun on any surface as an acceptable starting position. I believe that Kevin and I were both questioning the relevance of statement #2. What does the idea that no one stands a gun up that way at home have to do with our game? I don't generally walk around my house with a game belt, holstered gun and six spare mags either...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 1) It is safe. It is also wholesome and recommended by 4 out of 5 dentists surveyed! 2) So you want to eliminate all divisions except revolver and production? And make us hide behind stuff? Aaaaaahhhhh!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Vince, the problem is that we cannot "imply" a safe start position in a sport where we grab loaded blasters with great haste and shoot them while running like our hair is on fire I'd rather solve the problem, if there is one, by adding the language "gun resting flat on the table". Otherwise, we have people propping guns up on spare magazines and all sorts of deviousness. Match directors should weight the consequences. If it ain't illegal, it's legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Sam, Well said. If it ain't verbotten, then it's A-OK. That is what this and about 4 other threads from hades are all about. If you don't want a competitor to do something, then just write it into the WSB. The other item is the meaning of commonly used phrases. At what point does the meaning become so stretched out that it is no longer recognizable. Maybe we need a glossary with line drawings that defines certain terms. Maybe not, maybe all we need is a bit of common sense. Nope, we probably need the drawings! Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted December 21, 2004 Author Share Posted December 21, 2004 Anyway, I know many people who use custom guns for home defence, but none of them prop them upright on their muzzle and magwell. I beg to differ... This is my safe, and the (carry) guns on the right are always loaded. Do I store my loaded guns standing on their muzzle and magwell? Yes. Do I think it has any relevance for competition starting positions? Nope. Or should I say "these are not the loaded guns you're looking for" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 (edited) [edited: for "stupid" comments] Nobody would do so at home, and nobody is going to so on a stage when I'm Sheriff. Call the RM, call your Congressman, call the President, send the Marines, whatever, but a gamer looking for a silly edge is not going to make me forget about the bigger picture, namely my overriding responsibility to maximise safety. Edited December 21, 2004 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 (edited) [edit]. Edited December 21, 2004 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 (edited) [edit] Jim Norman . Edited December 21, 2004 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 (edited) [edit] Edited December 21, 2004 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 (edited) [edit] Edited December 21, 2004 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 You guys need to use the PM function to hash this out. Keep comments on the forum on topic and civil. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Jim....Vince, I've told you both in private. Now here. You two need to get along, or stop posting here. You both know what gets each other's knickers in a bunch and you seem to welcome the conflict. This just isn't the place for it. I am tired of playing the "overseer" to the two of you as you barb, bait, and berate one another. You two are intelligent, well versed, and care about the sport (until you start in on each other's opinions). I'd hate to see the forum without either one of you. You are assets to the sport. You both will need to band together like brothers. Show that you can get along. Resist the urge to beat and banter between each other...or, take a "Forum DQ". Kyle F. Administrator (btw, please don't send me any PM's stating your individual side of the story. You are in this together.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Flex, I hereby withdraw from the Enos Forums. Farewell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billwright Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Hey Vince, Just pick up your toys and get back in the cot, and Jim, stop proding him with a sharp stick you know hes a sensitive soul. Seriously guys i've really enjoyed the cut and thrust but its time for the old goodwill to all things and i wish you all a merry xmas etc. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 I agree. This is neither about "winning the argument", nor about taking one's ball and going home. This is (or, at least should be) about refining the rules for the game that we love, so that there are no gray areas, no ambiguities, no "discretionary interpretations" getting in the way of either freestyle *or* safety. If we can accomplish that refinement, we can focus on playing rather than disagreeing. Vince, my friend, I don't know anyone on the planet with more passion or more commitment to the IPSC organization than you. You have a vision. Others do as well. You may not agree on the vision, but the right thing to do - for all of us - is to find the common ground, not to abandon the quest. Don't give up. Help us make these things better... Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Hello all. This situation between Vince and Jim has been building for some time. It has not been a pleasure watching this escalate. We can't let knowledge and talent get away and yet we can't have turmoil in the forum. I'm hoping that the moderators will urge Vince to return. I expect that it was a "last straw" moment. Been there, done that, regretted it. I don't know what Jim's plans are, but I hope that he too returns. We have to solve this else we run the risk of having our forum turn into all the others. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Glen, Thank you. I am still here and unless requested toleave, I will remain. I too will miss Vince. He was a worthy adversary. Most of the time my argument with him was strictly over positions taken, there were a few that became personal. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Wow! This seems to have gotten out of hand. I have no idea what was in the posts that Flex edited but I assume there were things that violated the forum guidelines, hence the exercising of moderator authority to remove them? I think it a really shame if this discussion was enough to cause Vince to leave since I think his viewpoint is interesting even if I don't always understand it If we can't have reasonable disagreements and come to a common understanding with mutual respect, something is wrong some where Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 My apologies all for not noticing sooner that this thread went so far awry. I am locking it now, as it would appear that the original question has been answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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