ZackJones Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 The general consensus (from what I've read here) is the Nook Simple Touch is what most are using for scoring with Practiscore. Before we ask our club to invest heavily in them I wanted to ask what, if any, downsides they have? Are they responsive when entering scores? I have a no-name Android tablet I bought to use for testing and when scoring it's tap...wait...tap...wait it's rather frustrating to use. Do you use them in a protective case and/or with a screen protector? The discussion of tablet per stage versus tablet per squad has got me thinking it would be better to to leave the tablet at the stage instead of transport it. Are there other devices we should consider that are close to the cost of the Nooks? Thanks in advance for your feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcwren Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) We're heavily invested in the NOOKs because they're cheap, sunlight readable, have an incredible battery life, and are more rugged than a glass screen. They are not the fastest animals on the planet, and with 256MB of memory, there is an upper practical limit to the size of a match that could be run on one. I've written a utility to generate matches with varying sizes of stages and competitors. We know that if you have 400 competitors and 12 stages of data, it'll crash (but we run 250 shooter/10 stage state matches with no trouble). My *personal* feeling is there is some optimization that could be done there, because there's really no need to keep an entire match in memory. Using a database is the proper way to manage this, so you'd only ever need to keep the current stage, squad list and shooter being scored in memory. But it's not my code And it does feel like it could be a little snappier than it is... NOOKs do not operate in the rain well, even with screen protectors. This is because of the IR touch sensor. Putting something between your finger and the screen makes it think you're touching all over the place. We use a 2 gallon bag pulled over the NOOK, with your hand up inside to operate. Works well enough, but not as easy to use as a capacitive touch system (iPad, Nexus 7, whatever) or a resistive touch system (cheap Chinese knock-off tablets). As far as responsiveness, you don't have to wait for it to register. The screen is slow to update because it's e-Ink, but it's registering the touches as you go. So I just tap-tap, next target, tap-tap, and make sure it's registering. It only takes a 1/4 to 1/2 second to update, but some people find that lag off-putting. Given the advantages of the NOOK, it's a minor inconvenience. We recommend leaving the device at the stage. For us, we're hard-core about paper backups and frequent syncs. But it's not a perfect world out there, and if a NOOK goes casters-up, I'd rather lose a stage for 60 shooters than the entire match for one or more shooters. The only advantage to carrying the device with them is squad ordering. The downside is people *are* careless, and moving it around just presents more opportunity for damage. Plus, if the device goes off-line, I don't know where to find it. If it's at the stage, and CGC #4 isn't showing up, I can go to stage 4 and check on it. We give people little pieces of paper with lines on it to write the shooting order down. Some squads use them, some don't. For protection, there are a couple choices in silicone sleeves I've seen. One is a complete piece of crap, that fits loosely, covers the buttons, and feels like the NOOK is sliding around in it. The other is much nicer. They're about $3, and one of these days I'll remember to order a handful for the clubs. Some people like the styluses to tap the screen. You can buy 10 for $3 or something like that on Amazon and ePay. We have lots of them. I personally don't care for them, but some people insist on them. They're one more thing to get lost, keep up with, etc, in my book. But we try to cater to the competitors when we can. There are other choices than the NOOK. If you find a good one, we'd love to know. There are literally dozens of models of Android devices. The issues to consider are cost, ease of damage, battery life, and sunlight readability. Anything with a gig of memory and a 1GHz+ processor is going to run Practiscore well enough. The resistive touch systems are the suck. They just feel *wrong*. And usually there are little "lumps" where the buttons for Home, Back, etc are. I just wish someone would make an 7" eInk with a gig of memory, a 1GHz processor, capacitive touch, SD card slot, WiFi, and do it for $60 Edited February 14, 2014 by jcwren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Appreciate the feedback. I'm certain we'll go with the Nooks. We've ordered one to do testing with before asking the board to buy them and other stuff for the club to do electronic scoring for all disciplines we shoot and can score with PractiScore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcwren Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Check out http://rootnscoreit.com for the easiest and quickest way to root your NOOK and install Practiscore (note that the current version of RASI has 1.2.11, while the latest PS is 1.2.12. You'll likely want to upgrade your version of PS after using RASI, unless I generate a new version over the weekend). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 We looked at several options and overall the Nooks are the device to beat both as far as cost and functionality go. Using a stylus can help but unless you chain them to the Nooks, they get lost in quick order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken N. Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Synch only match changes, not scores, to the Nook to avoid the memory limits. Use it only for stage data collection, not registering or results calculations. www.meetearl,com has the beginnings of the perfect scoring platform. But won't know til it really ships The Nook has a short lifespan, as B&N is losing money on them. Forbes declared it something unlikely to be sold after 2014. A Kobo reader has recently been rooted, similar to a Nook only faster processor. Ken N. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted February 15, 2014 Author Share Posted February 15, 2014 Ken - interesting observation about the Nooks. Anyone tried the entry level Kindle yet? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007HCCNJU/ref=fs_sz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_P Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 If I remember the discussions correctly, the lower-levels of kindle don't run android. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcwren Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) The cheapest Kobo is the ARC, with a retail of $129, and I'm not seeing any significant discounting. I question how sunlight readable those are, too. I imagine there will be some less expensive solutions that don't need rooting. Also, based on what I've heard in some IRC channels and read in some forums, the "if Earl ships" is pretty much "if". Not very likely. Edited February 15, 2014 by jcwren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken N. Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Basic Kindle reader won't run Android. We could write for it's API, but doubtful Amazon would approve cause it uses bandwidth but doesn't sell books Raspberry Pi has some interesting options, cheap LCD screens. It has Android options, but it might be a little adventurous for most Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdphotoguy Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 We have 15 Nooks, most purchased at under $59 from eBay and a few under $39, so you can't beat that price. Also as mentioned they have excellent battery life. Unless it's very cold? then you better keep them warm some how or the battery will go from a 98% charge to 5%, to the Nook powering off in minutes. I use the same method as stated above with the ziplock bags to keep them dry. We tried leaving the Nooks on the stages, but folks would just toss the Nook wherever, like in the bucket with the hammer and nails. Now theNook stays with the squad and we either just sync all the Nooks back to the master after the match is over or I setup a Ubiquiti PicoStation to create a wifi network, which covers 4 of the 6 shooting bays and I periodically sync. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 The cheapest Kobo is the ARC, with a retail of $129, and I'm not seeing any significant discounting. I question how sunlight readable those are, too. I imagine there will be some less expensive solutions that don't need rooting. The Kobo mini is only $59. It is slightly smaller than the nook, but lists the same e-Ink touchscreen display. The Kobo Touch is $79 and about the same size as the nook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcwren Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 The cheapest Kobo is the ARC, with a retail of $129, and I'm not seeing any significant discounting. I question how sunlight readable those are, too. I imagine there will be some less expensive solutions that don't need rooting. The Kobo mini is only $59. It is slightly smaller than the nook, but lists the same e-Ink touchscreen display. The Kobo Touch is $79 and about the same size as the nook. Yeah, you're right. WIth the moving crap on the web page, I missed that there was a 'Tablets' and 'e-Reader' button under the picture. I prefer products comparisons in a table format. They don't make it easy to determine the differences. But tell you what... If these weren't so expensive, I'd outfit every device with one http://www.kobo.com/koboglo-hellokitty.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Something doesn't add up when the protective cover costs half as much as the device. Do you think your rooting process would be the same for these devices? It would be interesting to see if the faster processor fixes the screen update lag that the nooks experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcwren Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) According to the reading I'm doing right now, the Kobo Touch does not run Android. It does have a Linux kernel, and someone has ported Android 2.3.4 to it, by taking the Android configuration from a Tolino Shine. It appears it's almost a plug-n-boot solution. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYf1cWPRcDc http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225940 From a software perspective, it may be as simple as the Root'n-Score-It method, although there's a requirement to open the case. Haven't gotten through the video yet. The Kobo Touch is running a Linux-based application, as opposed to the NST's Android application. Reports are that, as an e-reader, the NST is a bit more responsive. But that's somewhat irrelevant for our purposes, since they'd both be running Android. There's also a lack of the page-turning buttons, which our users have largely become accustomed to for scrolling the squad lists and target scoring. The SD-card slot has no cover on the Kobo, but a piece of black tape would fix that (no need to let that magic range dust into the device...). It appears these are sold at Borders Books, and I think we have one around here. I may go down and pick one up to play with/destroy. This, of course, on top of the dozen+ other projects I have going on... Update: I guess not. Going to borders.com takes me to Barns & No-bells. Kobo is owned by Rakuten, who also owns buy.com. Interesting. Update II: There's two models, the N905B-KBO (from kobo.com and another store that I won't do business with) for $79, and the N905B-K3S-B that's going for all sorts of prices, from $120 to $200(!). The latter is "with special offers", but I can't figure out what they could possibly be, especially to drive the price up by $120. Edited February 15, 2014 by jcwren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_P Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 If special offers are the same as in kindle lingo, that means advertising. A kindle with special offers is about 10-20 dollars cheaper than one without. The unit displays advertising at certain times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 ...We know that if you have 400 competitors and 12 stages of data, it'll crash... Will crash at what point or doing what? Which PS version was it tested with and has it been reported to developers? You know, at https://practiscore.com/bugs/ or at least to support@practiscore.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Take a completely scored area championship or nationals-sized match and load it onto a nook (note: Nook) and then try to do normal scoring-type things; you'll have problems. You yourself have written before that you tried this and had memory issues loading the match. That being said, our plan for Area 6 is that although there are 12 stages and around 400 registered competitors, at any given time for any stage-dedicated nook, there will only be at the most 200 scores for the one stage before we swap out the devices at the start of the next squad start for fresh, "empty" (no scores) nooks. Remember, the overwhelmingly preferred platform for the android version of practiscore when used to score a uspsa match is the nook simple touch, not xyz-brand of android phone or tablet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) This does point out one thing that we saw before with the Pilots. This whole thing is something of a grass-roots seat-of-the-pants proposition. The current favored technique is to purchase a device that is going to be in short supply soon and hack it in order to install the software. It's probable that in a couple years, used devices found on EBay will be the only suppy. The alternative is to purchase more expensive Android devices that are hard to read in bright sunlight. What is needed is something that is endorsed and sold by the USPSA, fully configured. Edited February 17, 2014 by Graham Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I have seen some challenges with extreme heat that caused them to be unresponsive as well. Keeping them in the shade at much as possible on those really hot days seemed to help some. We ended up putting it in owe of the shooters coolers during down time. I am seriously thinking about bringing an ice pack for it next time it's really hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcwren Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 This does point out one thing that we saw before with the Pilots. This whole thing is something of a grass-roots seat-of-the-pants proposition. The current favored technique is to purchase a device that is going to be in short supply soon and hack it in order to install the software. It's probable that in a couple years, used devices found on EBay will be the only suppy. The alternative is to purchase more expensive Android devices that are hard to read in bright sunlight. What is needed is something that is endorsed and sold by the USPSA, fully configured. Never going to happen, unless someone like CED or another major supplier of shooting equipment steps up. ANY device you pick, be it Android or iOS is going to fade away at some point. If you're closely coupled to ANY given piece of hardware, it's inevitable. I don't think Apple is going anywhere, and neither is Android, but the specific hardware platforms will. Right now, the most cost effective choice are the NOOKs, albeit with their drawbacks. We're not going to find an absolutely idea piece of hardware for this system unless it's custom designed, and we don't have a user base for the revenue to make that happen. So the the software needs to be adaptable (which it is), and the clubs just need to pick what they like and/or can afford and go with that. In 3 years or 5 years, when NSTs become totally unavailable, the whole electronic scoring will have been evolving in the meantime. What's important is that it never target high end hardware as a REQUIREMENT to run. It can never mandate a 3G modem, GPS, or that it have 64GB of memory. While most clubs could afford any SINGLE device, fielding a fleet of them makes it cost prohibitive. Remain flexible, be adaptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I know it's not going to happen, but if the USPSA would step up and make a bulk purchase of a bunch of Nook ST's and configure them it would make it a lot easier for clubs to get into this and stay in it. As it stands right now, there's not another person I know of in our club who could/would have gotten us setup and running. I've been a computer guru for over 30yrs and even still, some of this stuff was bleeding edge for me. I'm not sure who's going to take this over in a year and keep it going when I move out of the area. As long as electronic scoring remains dependent on a few folks like us keeping it up, it's going to be destined to always be on the edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadarTech Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Graham, JC Wren has an app that makes loading a nook very simple! Check out rootnscoreit.com Also someone actually mentioned a package for clubs to do what talked about. Not sure when or where or who. But I remember reading it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 JC Wren has an app that makes loading a nook very simple! Check out rootnscoreit.com I've seen it. But it's still a hack and it's still the type of thing that many people would take one look at and say, "Not me!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 You've seen it but did you actually try it? It's crazy-easy to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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