NASCAR Type Point Series

[blackdragon]

fomeister,

You have a good point for the sponsors. Maybe set up seperate prize packages for the shooters that are signed up in the point series. HMMMM.

Ivan

[gunruner]

Ok I thought that I would give my $0.02 worth on how to make the PS better. SmittyFL ideas are similar to what I have thought of but a little different.

Raise the fees for the PS from $10 to $20. This will put more money into the kitty for payback. There is no reason to tax the nonPS shooters.

Drop the number of matches that you would need to shoot from 9 to 5. So your PS score would be your best:

1 National Match

1 Area Match

1 Other Match

2 State/ Sectional Matches

This would make it easier for shooters to be able to get their match that they need to be competitive in the PS and not have all the cost and time that it took the old way.

Drop all match multipliers. You would still need the Nationals, but it would not be so costly if you did not shot it..

The cash payout would remain the same, but the winner of each class would also get a slot for the next years National and the entry fee for the National would be free. This would be a little more of a reward for winning you class in the PS and would also be a true earned slot for the Nationals. Also if you won your class you would move up one class for that division. Hopefully that would cut down some of the sandbagging.

The slots for World Shot would be based of the PS Scores from the last 4 years. That way more of the big GM would have to take part in the PS to get their slots for the World Shot.

The last thing that needs to happen is USPSA need to promote the PS. A column in each issue of Front Sight on the PS, with a listing of how everyone in the PS is doing.

Wayne

[Barrettone]

Wayne...I like it. I think the Points Series fee is low, but your format is solid. I especially like the idea of making the World Shoot Slots available only through the PS. That accomplishes the goal of getting the big boys out to play. However, how do we deal with individuals with a large IPSC budget??? A guy who can only shoot 5 matches is at a decided disadvantage when the other guy can go to say 10 sectionals, 8 areas, and multiple other matches. What if we said Nats, YOUR Area Match, 2 best sectionals WITHIN your area, and an "other" match in your area. That would push each area to do an "other" match, and still keep it localized. Does this sound reasonable??? All your other criteria seems to work.

Jeff

[Flexmoney]

The best thing I have seen so far for ranking was the system that Dowter came up with.

[MikeFoley]

Gunrunner, SmittyFL, Barrettone, it looks like we are getting together on this. Now, who do we take it to? Hopefully Gary Stevens and Rob Boudrie are still reading this thread.

[Sterling White]

Something else to think about while your drinking, cussing, and discussin! Was sitting with a friend tonight kicking around Scenerio #2. This is a part of what would be in:

I'd like to see the PS ran in a shooting year finishing with Nat's. in September. So, A2 (or any other designated match) would then be counted as the first match for the new year. Crowning the PS champion should take place at the Nat's and not by the US Postal Service in January.

Another idea regarding PS sponsors if someone runs with ideas in this thread. If you look at the NASCAR model - Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler are not sponsors. Sponsors should be neutral, ie., Dillon, Armscor, Hornady, Zero, Coke, Pepsi, etc.... just food for thought.

My other suggestion would be to test the ideas by only using the Area matches in the first year with no multiplier. Second or third year, proposals could be entertained for other matches that meet specific criteria, ie., a specific number of GM's/M's, minimum 8 stages, and 200 shooters.

Don't be affraid to jack the PS entry fee up! $50, $100, $250 are all reasonable entry fee's if paid one time. This would also help cut down the extra financial tracking and mission counts.

[Barrettone]

Oh Gary....It's safe to come out now. The rattlesnakes and mongooses are done fighting. Time to take a look at the results. There are a lot of damn fine ideas here for improving the PS. Take a look at the thred, and tell us your opinion now.

Jeff

[Cameron]

Any reason why this could not begin in 2005????? If we had a "local" friendly setup, I believe PS would be popular in 2005. As for me, I will shoot several majors this year, but probably not enter the PS under the current structure.

[SmittyFL]

I would guess it's too late for 2005. Depending on what match structure we go with the FL Open is less than two months away.

I think if we go with some variant of the above examples the main issue is going to be getting the word out. Advertising it will be the key. A couple of the suggestions have been to have a one time up front PS entry fee. (which I agree with). It could/should be a significant amount $100-$250. With that kind of investment, folks are going to need to be fully aware of the PS, exactly how it is going to work, which matches will be included, etc. So they will know well ahead of time if they can make the matches to make it worth bucking up.

I think we're getting close to something.

[Flexmoney]

OK...what do you have?

Sell me on the Point Series. I can likely make 4 matches (not gonna make 8).

Why should I join the Point Series?

(BTW, what is the goal of the point series? What does it accomplish (positives)? What are the negatives?)

[SmittyFL]

Flex, you pony up $200ish at the beginning of the year. We are going to score (as match finish percentage) you finish at your Area match, the Nationals, and one other match. It could be your state, another state, another area, or any other approved PS match. The Area and other match will come from the 2005 season and will culminate with the 2006 Nationals being the last match.

It will be winner take all in class and division. So if you have the most points in you class and division you will take home a check for $2000-$2500 plus anything the sponsors may or may not decide to give. Along with the title of PS champion and a free slot to next years Nationals (just made that one up, as someone already suggested). Although if all classes and divisions were represented (which they probably won't be) that would be $7500 bucks out of the Nationals budget, might be too much so maybe you get half off next years Nats.

I wouldn't want to see this thing replace the Nationals. I look at it as more of "if you can do it great, if not oh well". It's kind of something extra for those who want to gamble a little. If it ended up catching on, there could be quite a bit of cash up for grabs. Hell, imagine if we had half of the folks who shot the nationals playing. It could end up with $50000-$75000 in the kitty.

Maybe in the unlikely event of a tie we could have one to three stages at the nationals to break the tie, or do it at the shootoffs.

Who knows, nobody else may be interested. I like to gamble so I'm probably looking at this from a different angle. There was some complaining on here about paying an extra 5 or 10 bucks at a match to up the kitty. While I understand their position, that wouldn't bother me even if I wasn't in the PS. I'm by no means well off, in fact if I keep shooting like I have been I'll probably be living in a cardboard box with my Dillon 650. But if bucking up 10 bucks would help this thing take off, I'd be all for it.

[schoonie]

Flex,

I think the large pot of $$$ gets all kind of attention, it may give us more national exposure. Heck they show pool tournaments that pay $5,000 to $10,000 on television. There probably is a threshold of money that will draw more participants and media and ultimately sponsors which could lead to a self funded event!

[Cameron]

I think this new plan could be in place for the Fla open.

1. Barrettone has volunteered to spearhead with the BOD.

2. Many constructive options have been offered and sounds like agreement achieved.

3. Funding from PS folks, with maybe some hope throughout the year from industry sponsors.

What is needed? Seems that organizing the thoughts on cost, local level, etc just need to be put on paper and submitted the the USPSA BOD for a vote? Then post the "new" plan on the website? I think the increased interest in a "localized" PS will gain people fast.

Flex,

Benefits I see:

More competitive nature.

A chance to win back, at a minimum, the fee for PS entry.

An achievable milestone goal for the avereage Joe shooting 4 majors a year.

Growth in the PS.

Being a winner of a PS would help in individual sponsorship oppertunities. Being a PS champion shows dedication by all classes of shooter, not just by having a GM card and a top 16 finish at Nationals.

Having a revised PS for 2005, in time for Fla open is possible. I may have missed a step in this process, so please advise on what I may have missed? I can think of at least 10 people in the SE Mi area that would participate in a revised PS championship for 2005.

Why wait?

What can I do personally to help implement this for 05?

[SmittyFL]

I agree with you Cameron. I just didn't think anything could be accomplished in a couple months. But if it could be done, I'd be in.

If the decision makers could just look at this thread I think they could come up with something pretty good.

[shred]

Hm.. if $ brought attention, the Steel Challenge would be on network TV. $300,000 pot, simple scoring, spectator friendly (except the targets don't fall) and PC targets. They're working on it (right MBane?), but it's slow going.

Here's another thought for the PS-- has anybody considered counting match points instead of %? That way you don't need a multiplier-- the bigger the match, the more points are available.

[SmittyFL]

You're a glass half empty kind of guy aren't you Shred. I would say the Steel Challenge does get more media attention than USPSA. Maybe not ABC prime time but it gets more than we do.

Also, the multiplier wasn't for the size of the match, but the competition you're shooting against. Match points won't work, it would push MD's to have all 32 round stages and that doesn't make for a good match.

[RIIID]

The pay back needs to be spelled out in the beginning. What would happen if this was to happen. Example: In Production Div. you have 4 GM's, 2 Masters, 3 A's, 6 B's, 1 C, and 10 D's sign up for the PS. How would the payout go with winner take all in Div. and class. Just a thought.

Rich

[SmittyFL]

Yeah, that's an issue Rich. It would be much better if folks knew what they were playing for ahead of time. But I don't see how that would work unless someone (USPSA) takes on some risk. They would have to say X is available for the winners. But if we didn't get enough entries they would be out money. I'd doubt they would go for that, and I can't blame them.

I would say you have to beat someone (or three) to win. So if there weren't enough folks in a class maybe they just get their money refunded or something. At least with the single fee at the beginning of the year, if there weren't enough folks in class their money could be refunded right away.

[Nik Habicht]

Rich,

I spent a couple of minutes doodling and came up with the following for a division:

HOA: 30%

M: 20%

A: 17.5%

B: 15%

C: 10%

D: 7.5%

In your example you had 26 entry fees. If you want there to be competition (i.e. at least three entries in class and division) before someone can become a point series finisher, then refund entry fees for those entrants who were non-competitive for a lack of entries. In this case you'd be refunding the two masters fees --- assuming that one of them didn't win HOA --- and one C-shooter's entry fee. That leaves you with 23 entries in the pot and percentages that don't add up to a hundred. Two ways to deal with --- either split the leftover cash along the set percentages, i.e. the HOA gets 3/7 of the left over cash, B gets 1.5/7, or adjust the percentage rates by equal division, in which case every class gets an extra 7.5% of the total cash allocated to it

That percentage breakdown should discourage sandbagging......

[shred]

You're a glass half empty kind of guy aren't you Shred. I would say the Steel Challenge does get more media attention than USPSA. Maybe not ABC prime time but it gets more than we do.

Maybe, I just don't see how PS solves all our problems (indeed it's got enough problems as-is that nobody around here is in it). If people want to play in it fine, just don't make the vast majority of us that don't care pay for it.

If you want more people to play in it, it's gotta be accessible to more people. I have yet to see anything beyond "the $$$ will get more people to matches". I have trouble buying that-- 90% of shooters won't even make their entry fees back, and the reason most people don't shoot more matches isn't the lack of prize $, it's lack of time and all their other commitments.

My point about the SC was there's a single match with a payout higher than most of proposed PS, with a more media-friendly format that still gets little respect, so why should we assume PS will?

[Jake Di Vita]

The SC is also a once a year thing, how many times can they air the same match over and over???

[RIIID]

Nik,

The idea of the PS is to get more people shooting USPSA (larger matches). With a payout like what you proposed,will not bring in more shooters in the lower classes. The way I see it, if you want more PS shooters ALL class winners get paid the same amount regardless of the number of shooters in that class or Div. The first year PS might loose some money but the following year more people would shoot to get that easy money(little to no competition).

Thread drift: I hate when a cash pay back match pays out the amount based on the number of shooters in that Div. Way back when A3 used to payout a set amount for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in both Div. no matter if more people shot open instead of limited. Just think if everybody knew that HOA Revo at an area match would get $500 there would be more than 5 shooters shooting for that cash. Same goes for the PS.

Just a thought,

Rich

[Paul B]

If the PS is intended to increase participation in majors is it really needed?

The only majors I've heard of that were suffering from lack of attendance were the nationals and a few other matches that may have priced themselves out of the market or just became shooter unfriendly.

I'm just wondering what we would expect to get from a point series match wise that we don't get now. I guess some majors have a few unfilled slots, but I hear others that are full and with waiters.

Sorry, but maybe I don't have a full picture.

[Flexmoney]

I think I am with Shred.

It's not that the glass is half-empty or half-full...it just seems like the glass is the wrong size.

I think I would be more likely to cut Phil a check for $100, then bet him another $100 in the shoot-offs. That way I'd at least have a chance of breaking even.

[MoNsTeR]

RIIID has the right idea on incentives in uncompetitive div./class combinations. If you just cancel those segments no one will come back. If you pay out a big prize, more people will come for it next time around. Like when a C class shooter wins division HOA (*cough* ), better shooters will compete in that division next year.