Sac Law Man Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 My understanding of the no camera, video thing was it was a range rule. They had issues with people in USPSA/IDPA arguing calls and trying to use the video to support their stance. Instead of just saying no they made it a range rule. I too skipped the match last year, but the year before they had squads reserved for those who wanted to video or take photos. If your were not in one of these squads you could not use video, etc.. Seemed silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 West coast matches tend to lack the imagination and financial investment in stage designs for one thing. Another is the lack of visibility which makes it tough to keep sponsors happy. That coupled with the lack of decent prize tables and the likely hood of getting anything pure chance, AND the cost to compete being as expensive as many other matches in the Midwest or east coast drive serious competitors elsewhere. If your sponsors are regional then that helps but most aren't and want that broad based exposure from the larger and better marketed matches. West coast clubs are going to really have to step up their games if they except to become a regular stop for the heavy hitters in the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Since this is under IDPA I will agree with everything you said Bob, except this West coast matches tend to lack the imagination and financial investment in stage designs I dont see that having anything to do with geography. I have shot IDPA matches all over this country and I couldn't say it made a difference. The most elaborate stages I have see were in San Luis Obispo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I didn't shoot the Ca state match in 2013 that you guys hosted so please don't take my comment as a reflection on your match. But I have shoot coast to coast and the more successful matches tend to have better quality props and more imaginative designs and they seem to be much more common elsewhere. But just as importantly, relative to the topic this thread is discussing, is they tend to be better marketed both before and after the match. The top shooters tend to be better sponsored, by companies who are expecting to gain positive exposure, so those competitors have to look at match attendance with a eye towards business. For those puritans who don't want those type of influences in their sport I understand but they have to accept that those top shooters given a choice will attend matches that best fit their business model. If your sponsors aren't getting feedback thru some channel from match attendance they will quickly decide the money they are spending would be better spent somewhere else. If you look at the competitors who attend your match as clients you can then design your entertainment (the match) to draw your targeted demographics by directly appealing to their want and needs. Those will be different for the local pure amateur then a traveling pro or semi pro. If you want the big dogs to attend, design the match to appeal to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) No offense taken Bob.. I get what your saying, and I agree somewhat. It just has NOT been my experience that west coast matches lack good stages, Im not just saying that because I live here, Stage design is definately a game changer and sets the good matches apart from others. I like your marketing approach as well.. Make sure you sign up this year.. Edited January 31, 2014 by Sac Law Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I would oppose any move in IDPA to make it possible to "pay the rent." We don't need another professional ex-sporting event in this country. I can get along without the big dogs if they expect to be paid to shoot with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 "I would oppose any move in IDPA to make it possible to pay the rent" As is certainly your right. A lot of people would like to see IDPA stay a completely amateur sport. Clubs could help ensure that by eliminating any and all prize tables, random or otherwise, to prevent profit from being a motivation for match attendance. I think that was the original intent of IDPA but that has gotten lost somewhere along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSSOH22 Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Maybe I'm missing something, but why would one want prize tables and such eliminated? I get people shoot IDPA for different reasons, but in the end, it is a competition. If I was not going to matches trying to win DIV titles and rather doing it for added proficiency, I personally would just stay home and shoot local matches and save a boat load of money! I get the concept behind not accepting video analysis, but if you have a rule that says a video cannot dictate the ruling on a stage, what is wrong with allowing people to take footage of themselves? Im pretty sure the majority are capturing it for personal critique, Facebook glorification, or just fun. I personally have never seen anyone try to argue a procedural on a stage with video footage, but Im sure it has happened somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 It was just a thought ..... Since the bulk of IDPA competitors seem to agree with Mr Watson, wanting IDPA to remain a amateur sport, compensation of any kind would seem to be counter productive on several levels. At the very least it would make it easier for small clubs to host sanctioned matches. There would probably be a reduction in entry fees opening the sport up to more people and/or allowing more money to be spent on really cool stages to everyone's benefit. Performance recognition could still be done by trophies or plaques. Match attendance then would be driven by the quality of the stages/match instead of any precevied chance of financial gain. Those wanting to profit from their shooting then could refocus on USPSA type events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) Bob pretty well spells it out. Back when I was still getting Front Sight magazine, there was a USPSA Regional that went trophy only. It was well attended. I would also favor a Pro Division for the few full time professional shooters and the good number of heavily sponsored shooters to duke it out separate from those of us shooting on our own time and money. Unfortunately this does not meet Personal Rule Change Guidelines. That is, doing it my way would not make me a winner, as is usually the case. Edited February 1, 2014 by Jim Watson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihocky2 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 From what I've seen living on the east cost, you still don't get many big names showing up for IDPA. Having one that lives locally I know they tend to prefer USPSA because that is where the sponsorship money is and that is where the prize tables are. Come summer when that majority of matches are going on, most will choose USPSA or Bianchi Cup over IDPA. I know one of the DM's only goes to state matches or other sanctioned matches to practice for Nationals and Indoors. Other than that you never see him at IDPA. Especially after the new rule changes it is just too different of sports to constantly bounce between and be good at both. Unfortunately for those of us that enjoy IDPA or who only have IDPA locally, we don't get to see many of the top names because they are off in other sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 the prize tables and payouts are bigger on the east coast.......oh yeah I forgot there is no pay out or prize table. So the only reason for any big name shooters to go to an IDPA match is for the publicity. The only IDPA matches that get any publicity are the Carolina Cup, IDPA nationals and S&W indoor nationals. So there is literally no benefit to any national level shooter in going to a state match that gets virtually no press. We usually give away a dozen or more guns each year, so it's good to know we can stop. Maybe the problem is the press likes to stay home? I've been following college football recruiting the last couple of weeks, players are rated on a "star" system, and if certain colleges extend a scholarship to a given player, they seem to be rewarded with an extra star. Maybe if the shooting press would give a star to west coast matches, more "name" shooters would show up? The eastern matches aren't better matches, they're just more easterly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 (edited) Do you give those 10-12 guns to the top 10-12 overall finishers or use a random system? Who you give those guns to will be the group of shooters you attract. Edited February 9, 2014 by Bob Hostetter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihocky2 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I shot 5 sanctioned matches this year on the east coast and there were 8 guns given between all of them. Now none of them were the BIG name IDPA matches. They were all given as random drawings. So for lowly weekend warriors like myself it works out great, I have as much chance to win as Sevigney does. But for the guys that typically win prizes at USPSA because of finishing near the top, what is the draw? They have a random chance to win, where at a USPSA match with the prize table is based on results they consistently have a chance to walk away with something to make the trip worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) At last years CA state match, we had 6 guns (4 Glocks, a Springfield 1911 and a S&W SSR revolver) and a Dillon 650 as raffle prizes. This is not a geography issue in the sense of East coast clubs are better then West or vice versa.. Its more of how far are people willing to travel to shoot.... The big name shootes are not going to an IDPA match becasue of the door prizes or raffle prizes, Its conveience, timing and committments. Most will shoot the big 3. Edited February 13, 2014 by Sac Law Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Do you give those 10-12 guns to the top 10-12 overall finishers or use a random system? Who you give those guns to will be the group of shooters you attract. You're being obtuse, or you want to know the IDPA rules for awarding prizes? If everyone has a chance to win, then by your reasoning, everyone should be attracted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Do you give those 10-12 guns to the top 10-12 overall finishers or use a random system? Who you give those guns to will be the group of shooters you attract. You're being obtuse, or you want to know the IDPA rules for awarding prizes? If everyone has a chance to win, then by your reasoning, everyone should be attracted. ... Unless your chances of winning a gun at another match are based on skill and you have skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Thank you for the complement but I am never obtuse or even subtle for that matter. The point I was trying to make was if you award the prizes based on performance rather then attendance you will attract shooters who think they are capable of winning the match and thus the prize (better odds of winning then a random drawing). On the other hand you would possibly discourage less skilled shooters who don't consider themselves likely to win the match (worse odds of winning). Which ever way you structure the awards is going to effect the appeal of the match to either group. This of course assumes that competitors are motivated by the possibility of winning a prize which in my experience tends to be both groups. As I stated before, IDPA would probably be best served, if their stated desire for the future is true, to eliminate or ban any or all prize awards. Solves all the problems, except maybe attracting the "big dogs" which was the point of the whole thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 It's interesting that Big Dogs might be more inclined to shoot IDPA if there are no prizes at all, than if there are random prizes? If Top Dogs must shoot IDPA to please their sponsors, then it wouldn't matter if there were prizes, or not. Obviously, if the shooter decides where they are going to win, then they'll want to shoot the matches where prizes go to the winners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Obviously, if the shooter decides where they are going to win, then they'll want to shoot the matches where prizes go to the winners. Why is that obvious? I've competed at alot of different sports, and I've always decided what events to attend based on the quality of the event rather than chance of winning prizes. If all I want is prizes, I can stay home, buy my own and save a ton of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 People who are sponsored to shoot IDPA matches are rarely riding on full house sponsorships which means they must still pay for a portion of their expenses. They aren't seeking the prizes to keep but to sell to help defer some of the cost of competing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 People who are sponsored to shoot IDPA matches are rarely riding on full house sponsorships which means they must still pay for a portion of their expenses. They aren't seeking the prizes to keep but to sell to help defer some of the cost of competing. Bummer for them. I have a job to defer some of the cost of competing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Moto, good for you, I hope you make enough money to cover your expenses and leave plenty for your family. Just out of curiosity, what do you think the average 'big dog' spends every year competing in and supporting IDPA? We can define 'big dog' as anyone who is reasonably sponsored and accepts obligations to compete at a certain number and location of matches in return for that sponsorship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Moto, good for you, I hope you make enough money to cover your expenses and leave plenty for your family. Just out of curiosity, what do you think the average 'big dog' spends every year competing in and supporting IDPA? We can define 'big dog' as anyone who is reasonably sponsored and accepts obligations to compete at a certain number and location of matches in return for that sponsorship. I have no idea, and I don't really care. That's between them and their sponsors. I don't see any reason the rest of the participants should be funding sponsored guys. Somehow the sponsored participants in bicycle races and off-road motorcycle races and many other athletic competitions don't have to depend on the prize table to be able to afford to compete, and they typically raffle off stuff at random, and have some plaques and trophies for the division winners. I just don't think that prizes have that much effect on the 'big dogs', but as I mentioned earlier, I don't think there are really more than couple 'big dogs' that even shoot IDPA seriously. Quality of event, convenience of date, and location are the important things imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I am 100% for sponsored shooters in IDPA. And having shot a sanctioned match or two now with no prize table I can tell you I will never shoot them again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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