38 Short Colt, 158/160gr bullet, Tightgroup. Will it work, where to s

[Bosshoss]

And the problem with CLAYS flake powder is that it will bridge under 3.0 grains with the Dillon measures unless you put something on the measure to keep it moving.

DougC

Doug do you have any suggestions on how to keep the powder moving? Something that vibrates mounted to the side of the powder measure?

Shooting .38 super 627 with 160 SNS and 3.1 grains clays that runs 905 FPS and 145 PF so I need to drop to below 3 grains.

I have never tried to run Clays that low before.

[alecmc]

I've never tried to run clays at or below 3 grains.

I've seen this pop up a few times, aftermarket powder measure... might be worth looking into ?

http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1231

[pskys2]

And the problem with CLAYS flake powder is that it will bridge under 3.0 grains with the Dillon measures unless you put something on the measure to keep it moving.

DougC

The newer powder measures gave me fits, the ones with the anti-double drop fitting. The older powder measures are just straight action with no extra plate/arm to keep you from double charging and haven't given me any trouble with bridging clays at the 2.7 level.

Edited January 31, 2014 by pskys2

[Bubber]

And the problem with CLAYS flake powder is that it will bridge under 3.0 grains with the Dillon measures unless you put something on the measure to keep it moving.

DougC

Doug do you have any suggestions on how to keep the powder moving? Something that vibrates mounted to the side of the powder measure?

Shooting .38 super 627 with 160 SNS and 3.1 grains clays that runs 905 FPS and 145 PF so I need to drop to below 3 grains.

I have never tried to run Clays that low before.

Boss, I use 2.7 to 2.9 grains of Clays for my loads in the 38 super. I find that 3.2 is a little of the hot side and will only go to 3.1 and have no issues with the brass sticking but sometimes, with temperature variances 3.2 is not a good idea. I use the standard Dillon 550 loading system. With the 2.9 I am in the 128 to 133 PF range. I hope this is helpful. later rdd

[mcb]

Alright so I loaded a small batch of 38 Short Colt with 2.7 gr of Clays tonight. I also did a test before and after loading on the charge bar. This test was done with the new extra small powder bar I ordered with my 9mm dies and conversion kit. After I got the powder bar set on 2.7 grains I ran 20 samples. I pulled the case off and poured the charge into the pan on my scale. My Scale is a RCBS Range Master 750, it was well warmed up since I left it on all night, oops.

No. total charge

1 2.7 2.7

2 5.4 2.7

3 8.1 2.7

4 10.8 2.7

5 13.6 2.8

6 16.3 2.7

7 18.9 2.6

8 21.6 2.7

9 24.3 2.7

10 26.9 2.6

11 29.6 2.7

12 32.3 2.7

13 35 2.7

14 37.6 2.6

15 40.4 2.8

16 43.1 2.7

17 45.8 2.7

18 48.5 2.7

19 51.2 2.7

20 54 2.8

Average 2.7

Std Dev 0.054772

As you can see the extra small powder bar did pretty good with Clay even down this light. After loading about 50rds I did another 20 charge average to see if it changed.

No. total charge

1 2.8 2.8

2 5.5 2.7

3 8.1 2.6

4 10.8 2.7

5 13.4 2.6

6 16.1 2.7

7 18.7 2.6

8 21.4 2.7

9 24.1 2.7

10 26.7 2.6

11 29.4 2.7

12 32.1 2.7

13 34.8 2.7

14 37.5 2.7

15 40.1 2.6

16 42.8 2.7

17 45.5 2.7

18 48.2 2.7

19 50.9 2.7

20 53.6 2.7

Average 2.68

Std Dev 0.05099

The average is a touch lower but the standard deviation is slightly better. I will have to keep an eye on it but so far it appears the extra small charge bar does not have any problem with light loads and Clays.

[DougCarden]

Good data, thank you for sharing. Some people have put aquarium air movers on the measure, and some have used vibration devices attached to the body of the measure as well too.....

DougC

[pskys2]

So what is the difference between the 2 powder bars?

Is the extra small thinner so it has a wider drop for the volume than the standard?

[mcb]

So what is the difference between the 2 powder bars?

Is the extra small thinner so it has a wider drop for the volume than the standard?

The small and extra small charge bars appear to be identical in almost every way except that the end of the slot is squared up in the extra small charge bar. This allows it to close smaller and eliminates the very tight corners formed when the small charge bar is set real low. When a small bar is set down very close to its smallest charge the opening forms a triangle with two pretty tight corners, ~45deg and one at about 90 deg. The extra small charge bar forms a rectangle as it closes down with four square corners. I think the bridging is happening in those tight corners of the small charge bar.

Top is standard small charge bar, Bottom is new extra small charge bar.

[pskys2]

Thanks, may have to get a couple.

[thermobollocks]

I'm a little confused on what bridging is. Is it where the bulky powder does not flow correctly from the hopper into the charge bar?

I ask because I've loaded a fair amount of Clays (and Trail Boss, which would presumably have the same problem if I understand it correctly) at about 2.5 and 2.8 grains for 9mm for steel, and not encountered any issues with the powder measure running correctly.

[pskys2]

I'm a little confused on what bridging is. Is it where the bulky powder does not flow correctly from the hopper into the charge bar?

I ask because I've loaded a fair amount of Clays (and Trail Boss, which would presumably have the same problem if I understand it correctly) at about 2.5 and 2.8 grains for 9mm for steel, and not encountered any issues with the powder measure running correctly.

Yes the larger flakes sometimes don't fall in neatly. I don't notice it on the older Dillon Powder Measures, the one without the anti-double charge arm. I have seen it on the newer ones, with the anti-double charge arm. I noticed it while chronographing, The velocity spreads were more than I liked, quite a bit more. I've not seen one go poof, or anything like that but also don't want to go sub minor from it.

[mcb]

Shot my first match of the year. Little rusty but what can you do. I did get to chrono the two Short Colt loads. Here are the results. Use my Chony Alpha Chronograph about 8 feet behind the front screen. It was about 5 degrees outside and not much warmer in that range (well maybe 50-55F).

Case: Starline 38 Short Colt
Primer: Fed Small
Powder: 3.04grs Titegroup (average of 10 throws)
Bullet: 160gr RN Ibejiheads coated lead bullet
OAL: 1.190
Crimp: just enough to remove all the bell from the expander.
Low: 798.9
High: 828.6
Average: 812.4 (130.0 PF 8-shot average)
Extreme Spread: 29.7
Standard Deviation: 10.2

Case: Starline 38 Short Colt
Primer: Fed Small
Powder: 2.7gr Clays
Bullet: 160gr RN Ibejiheads coated lead bullet
OAL: 1.190
Crimp: just enough to remove all the bell from the expander.
Low: 770.0
High: 807.6
Average: 790.3 (126.4 PF 8-shot average)
Extreme Spread: 37.6
Standard Deviation: 10.9

I really liked the Titegroup load. easy extraction, accuracy was as good at my 38 Special loads. Didn't shoot enough of it to see if there are any leading or powder residue problems.

[pskys2]

Looks good, remember that all competitions chronograph with the muzzle 10 feet from the first screen the bullet passes over. 2 feet may not seem much but it can make a difference.

Titegroup usually is clean and accurate. It will just heat up the barrel/cylinder pretty quick in the summer. Even with that I would use it with a .44 Russian and if I had some now might use it with the Short Colt.

I'm trying to load to 132 to 135 PF.

[springy]

Be CAREFUL with fast powder and heavy bullets in 38 short colt. Others ( not me) have blown up cylinders with fast powder. I would start at 3.0 and work up slowly. Check extraction. That will tell you more than looking at federal primers. When you have sticky extraction, you need to go back down. Go slow and see what you find out....

DougC

I'm having a problem understanding some of this. Modern 357 chambers are designed for 40,000+ psi, the hottest 9mm loads are right at 32,000 with 147gr bullets. Why is the jump to 158gr in a 9mm case (38 SC) at minor pf considered a problem?

[mcb]

Looks good, remember that all competitions chronograph with the muzzle 10 feet from the first screen the bullet passes over. 2 feet may not seem much but it can make a difference.

Titegroup usually is clean and accurate. It will just heat up the barrel/cylinder pretty quick in the summer. Even with that I would use it with a .44 Russian and if I had some now might use it with the Short Colt.

I'm trying to load to 132 to 135 PF.

For the first batch I am going to bump the charge up to a nice even 3.1 grains. That should give me a touch more cushion. Also I expect it to hopefully be warmer when I run into matches with Chrono Stages.

[pskys2]

Springy, The 357 magnum case is designed for those pressures, the 9mm is designed for those pressures. The 38 short colt is designed for 18000? Plus fast powders, heavy bullets and short oal add up to quick pressures. But the real issue is sticky extraction, possibly a case rupture at the rim but I doubt if you would blow up a cylinder/gun. Though light loads of Bullseye in a 38 special case have probably retired more guns than 40 s&w in glocks.

MCB good thing about Clays/Titegroup is they will increase in velocity as it warms up. I try to get my loads where I want during the winter in 40 deg weather. Then check them out again in the summer.

[thermobollocks]

Springy, The 357 magnum case is designed for those pressures, the 9mm is designed for those pressures. The 38 short colt is designed for 18000? Plus fast powders, heavy bullets and short oal add up to quick pressures. But the real issue is sticky extraction, possibly a case rupture at the rim but I doubt if you would blow up a cylinder/gun.

While the .38 Short Colt case is indeed an older specification, modern brass is made by Starline, and I'd venture a guess that they make it with the exact same materials and equipment as their other high pressure offerings (9/40/.38 Screamer). Is there something about the internal case dimensions that would give it a weaker head or something?

[pskys2]

Springy, The 357 magnum case is designed for those pressures, the 9mm is designed for those pressures. The 38 short colt is designed for 18000? Plus fast powders, heavy bullets and short oal add up to quick pressures. But the real issue is sticky extraction, possibly a case rupture at the rim but I doubt if you would blow up a cylinder/gun.

While the .38 Short Colt case is indeed an older specification, modern brass is made by Starline, and I'd venture a guess that they make it with the exact same materials and equipment as their other high pressure offerings (9/40/.38 Screamer). Is there something about the internal case dimensions that would give it a weaker head or something?

Agreed on modern materials, I suspect it's the dimensions.

[mcb]

The pressure problem has very little to do with the particular case, 9mm or 38 SC or 38 Special. The problem, as I see it, is with the combination of fast powders and heavy bullets. Fast powders are nice because they can reduce felt recoil. For a given bullet mass and velocity (ie Power Factor) fast powders achieve the power factor with less mass of powder. This reduces the total mass ejected out of the muzzle, thus reducing felt recoil. The problem comes from taking that to the extreme. If you look at a typical chamber pressure vs barrel position graph:

For a given bullet weight launched at a given velocity the area under the pressure vs distance curve has to integrate to the same value independent of the powder used. Integrating the area under the pressure curve is the energy. As we increase the powder burn rate (adjusting charge weight to maintain the same final velocity) you will see that curve change. The peak will get higher,the peak will get narrower, and the pressure nearer the muzzle will frequently be lower. But the area under the curve will integrate to the same value a slower powder did (again assuming same bullet and velocity). With really fast powders we can thus exceed maximum pressure while not realizing the desired velocity. Heavy bullets, are heavy (duh) and larger taking up case volume (which is at a premium in 9mm/38SC load with 140+gr bullets). These both exacerbate the problems of selecting fast burning powders. Ideally we want the fastest powder (ie lowest mass of powder) that can achieve the desired velocity while staying under a safe pressure.

Hope that is not too much rambling.

Edited February 10, 2014 by mcb

[Bubber]

mcb that is basically it. We, or at least I, do not have the capabilities to measure pressures that occur in the case. But I do find that at 3.2 grains of clays behind a 160 grain bullet in the confines of a 38 super case, the cases are a bit of an extraction problem. So if it takes more than 3.1 grains of clays to get the velocities needed I change to a slower powder, like WSF and test that. Clays seem to spike rather quickly.

[springy]

I ordered some Rottweil P803 from my supplier, when I opened the box there was a puppy peeing on my floor............

[mcb]

Hey guys, worked up a new 38 Short Colt load using Titegroup. This time with Berry's 160gr RN plated bullet. Again gun was my 5 inch 627 and the chronograph was my Chony Alpha.

Load #1:

Case: Starline 38 Short Colt
Primer: Fed Small
Powder: 3.14gr Titegroup (average of 10 thows)
Bullet: 158gr RN Berry's plated bullet
OAL: 1.185
Crimp: just enough to remove all the bell from the expander.
Low: 773.1
High: 817.1
Average: 796.0 (125.77 PF 8-shot average)
Extreme Spread: 42.99
Standard Deviation: 14.83

Load #2

Case: Starline 38 Short Colt

Primer: Fed Small
Powder: 3.26gr Titegroup (average of 10 thows)
Bullet: 158gr RN Berry's plated bullet
OAL: 1.185
Crimp: just enough to remove all the bell from the expander.
Low: 810.8
High: 828.5
Average: 821.1 (129.73 PF 7-shot average)
Extreme Spread: 17.7
Standard Deviation: 6.90

Edited February 24, 2014 by mcb

[MWP]

Ok I'm having a tough time with my short colt loads too. I had to go all the way to 3.4gr TG to make power factor, 1.170oal made 125 pf for a 5 shot average, and 1.160oal made 128 pf.

Same setup, 5" 627, berry's 158, taper crimp.

Any ideas?

I also have some 147 extreme 9mm .357 bullets that I have been working up slowly. Can I truly use 9mm load data in the short colt? I went to 3.4TG at 1.160 and 1.140 and got 119 pf and 112.5. I'm thinking leaving the charge alone and working oal down towards 9mm specs, 1.1.

[pskys2]

Using the 158 Berry RN at 1.140 with both Roll and Taper Crimp and 3.2 Tite I made 849f/s and 134PF with no issues.

Went to 3.4 and a Taper Crimp and was over 900 and a 143pf. I have some 357 147 xtreme's and using Clays just can't get them to group.

Might double check your scales. I always throw 5 and measure.

Seems like the 38 short colt needs around 10% over a 9mm load, probably due to slightly larger case volume. But I always start at the 9mm data and go from there.

[alecmc]

pskys2 -

did you notice alot of heat with using titegroup on your cylinder?