Precision rifle series

[FireShooter]

For those of you that shoot PRS. Could I realistically hang with the big boys using a gas gun in this sport. My gas gun is a JP 308. Very accurate rifle. So if I do everything on my part, is the gun capable of hanging with the bolt gun competitors? Also what's the max magnification that you would recommend for this sport? What kind of magnification are the top competitors using. All I have right now is a leupold mark 6 1-6. Would a 10x get it done or would you recommend more power? Thanks

[tohm]

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/12/17/best-rifle-caliber-what-the-pros-use/

Interesting statistics pulled from a post the other day. There was also a post about the AR platform but I did not find look it up, just do a search. When I thought about it a S&B 5-25 seemed the way to go but I went towards three gun instead. This link gives some good stats for all that.

[427Cobra]

IMHO no

[Mickster]

Cobra, could you expand a little bit on that.

I would also like to start by giving it a try with a gas gun, .308 or .223, not sure which yet. I don't expect to run with the big boys but don't want to really suck just because of equipment.

[ShooterSteve]

I'm interested in this as well. We have a DMM match here that goes to 600 yds, and I was hoping I could at least hold my own with an AR10 with a good scope that has dots or hold overs. I know the PRS matches are beyond what I have, but it looks like a lot of fun.

[Finbox]

I have shot both at comps. I shoot a bolt gun a little better than a gasser off of a bench with bipod and bags used with both.

The key problem with a gasser during a comp is the lock time, my TRG bolt gun has a super fast lock time and the AR is much slower.

On a bench or prone it's not that big of deal, but in improvised shooting positions, wobbly barricades, round hand rails, window ports etc, that make up a huge portion of today's tactical matches your score will suffer.

If you are used to shooting three gun or fun shooting at your local range, hitting the FULL SIZED targets at ease and think " man this AR-10 is super accurate! I'm hitting everything I think I'll go to a tactical match!" You will be sadly disappointed when you a required to hit ground hog targets at 615 yards off a hand rail!

Some stages require target identification ( for example 16 pictures of faces on a 8"x10" pice of paper at 100 yards) you might be ok with a 16 power, but if you can't find the guy with the "top hat and glasses" you will be wasting your time. I would use at least a 20x

In the last 3 big matches there where NO .308 guns shooting, think about that. Most are 6mm or 6.5/.260 or some other wildcat. .223 does not stand a chance.

In my opinion your rifle has to engage and hit 10" plates at 800 yards in ALL shooting positions to be competitive at any big match.

I would shoot a match with your gasser, have fun learn a bunch, but to be really competitive the bolt gun is the way to go. If you go to a big match and watch the top guys you will see some amazing WTF shots it's really impressive.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Finbox

[frankie]

okay I'm a newby with rifles. What is a DMM match?

[00MGN]

I have shot in the PRS for the last two years would have to say that you can shoot a gasser in .308 and not finish last, depending on your skill level. That being said there are some matches out there that you are shooting at multiple 1/2" dots at 100 yards or flies on paper at the same distance so you need to have a platform that can consistently do this or you are leaving points on the table, or even worse loosing points because there is a no shoot target that the dot is in the middle of. The .308 is not really used due to the lower B.C. of the bullets most use high B.C 6.5mm and 6mm bullets and run them toward the hot side - my 6 runs 115vlds at 3080 and I know of others that run them around 3150. The use of these high B.C. bullets give you better margin of error for wind calls, what I mean by this is with a 175smk at 500yds with a 10mph full value wind I need 1mil for the same target with my 6mm I only need .7mils. As for magnification I use U.S. Optics 5-25x and 3.8-22x with the logic that I can always turn my scope down if I needed to, the large magnification has helped at matches where there is 24" plate at 1200yds or as the previous poster stated seeing the guy with the top hat at 100yds on paper stages. These matches are fun and you can learn a lot.

[californiasushi]

okay I'm a newby with rifles. What is a DMM match?

I believe he's talking about the Designated Marksman Match at Woody's (http://woodysmatch.com/) in North Carolina. You shoot 6-12" steel targets over natural terrain from 100-600 yards on the clock from field positions. It's not just shooting targets located on a berm. It's a great match and really well-designed and well-run. For sure a great time.

Shooter Steve, if you were wondering if you could be competitive with an AR10 at Woody's DMM it would probably matter how accurate your gun is with match ammo. If it shoots about a MOA for sure you can be competitive, IMHO. People have won the match shooting AR15's in .223.

[ShooterSteve]

This is exactly the match I'm talking about with DMM. Seems very much like PRS, with a little shorter ranges. Right now my AR10 will go about 5/8" at 100yds off a bench with a Leupy 18x, but it's a target dot, so I know that I need a totally different optic system. My AR15 will go sub MOA with plain old 55gr fmj with no load development and a 4x Burris, so I guess I'm wondering if I could just hang in there if I worked up a load with some heavier match bullets and a better optic. I know that I'm not set up to be super competitive at an event like this, so I would have to keep my expectations about my finish realistic. Sometimes that is hard for me to do because I'm too competitive for my own good. I would just like to finish respectably. A big thank you to the people who chimed in with details about the pros and cons of what I'm looking at. It helps me understand what I'm up against, so I would walk into this with my eyes open. I guess my whole idea is, I'd like to go to a match and give this a try with what I have (with better optics) to see how it is, and I may come home humbled, but not embarresed, if that makes sense.

[californiasushi]

Yeah the PRS matches seem similar to the DMM (I'm only going from what I've read, my first PRS match will be the upcoming match at Woody's) but they're points-based not time-based so hits are a higher priority. PRS matches also have smaller targets, farther ranges (like you mentioned), much more movement, and they can test additional rifle skills such as movers, loopholes, angle shooting, and much more. Just a lot more precision-oriented.

If you're talking about an AR15 with a 4x Burris I'm going to guess it's a 16" barrel. That would probably work moderately well with faster loaded heavies (especially if you can get Berger 70 VLD's to work in your gun, same BC as the 75/77's but with a higher velocity) and a better scope. Your AR10 would probably be even better since it seems more accurate. And although .223 can have a similar trajectory to .308, .308 will drift less (with the same barrel length and comparable match ammo) at the expense of a higher cost and recoil. That being said, we just used AR15's and we finished OK at the match but like I mentioned people have fared much better than we have using AR15's as well.

[ShooterSteve]

the AR15 barrel is an 18" JP supermatch with the cooling fins and a cooley comp. PRI carbon fiber fore end, Vltor upper, JP lower and trigger, Youngs lightweight SS carrier, Stark grip, Emod stock. Burris Eurodiamond (pre xtr), but it has been updated with the xtr bdc, and it's in a LaRue mount. Gun shoots really well. I have some heavier Hornady bullets on the way. Will give them a try with some Varget and see what happens.

My barrel is an 8 twist. Will that run the Berger's ok? I know that Berger's are great bullets, but the VLD's can be real picky about twist and throat depth.

[californiasushi]

That's a really nice gun. It should do very well at the DMM as long as you have good zeroes and the wind isn't blowing a ridiculous amount. Like you stated earlier though you'll probably want a different scope that's more suited for precision shooting. Are you getting the Hornady 75 BTHP's? Those are nice bullets, especially for the price. Any charge with Varget from 23.8-24.5gr (I've heard the factory Hornady 75 BTHP Match load is 24.1 Varget and a 75 BTHP) will do great out of your gun I'm sure. As to whether or not the Bergers will be better it's hard to tell until you shoot them both out of your gun. The twist rate is fine for them, but your gun just might not shoot the 70 VLD's as well as the Hornadys. If that's the case they're probably not worth using even though the exterior ballistic performance will be better. Especially factoring in the increased cost of the Berger bullets.

Did you sign up for the practice day at Woody's? It's next month and would be a great chance to get some practice and zeroes for your gun if you don't have regular access to a range that offers extended distances like most of us.

[ShooterSteve]

Hormadys 75 gr came today. Midway had them on clearance sale so I bought a couple hundred. Have a bunch of varget so I'll give them a try. I would like to go to woodys. I'm on vacation that week so it would work. The only kicker is that I had all ready planned an App trail trip that week, and that week is specifically set aside for that trip. It was planned before this long range bug hit. Funny, I have a hiking trip planned and for the first time ever I'm praying for rain.

[ShooterSteve]

Got to play with the hormady 75s and my Stoney point comparator. Bullet ogive is very close to mag length. Looks like I will have a .020" jump when loaded to max mag length. I will have a ton of bullet in the case, so I know that will cut down on powder capacity. Looking forward to seeing how this works out.

[californiasushi]

Awesome! I hope the loads work for you. About the case capacity, with Varget you're going to have a compressed loads if you're using a decent charge. It's fine as long as you don't have something like a Redding Competition Seater which is known to break if you're constantly seating bullets on compressed loads. I'm sure you'll find a good load really quickly, those are popular components for good reason. Varget just doesn't give you as much velocity as other powders might in .223 with the heavies unfortunately. Still good, just not great. Hopefully you can make it out to Woody's then for the second practice day in late June or at least one of the matches. They're a blast!

[38superman]

FireShooter,

I think you could do quite well with a JP in.308.

I'm sure that with some decent load development you should be able to get your rifle shooting sub 1/2 MOA.

I've never been able to shoot much better than 1/4 MOA with anything but a bonafide benchrest gun.

Make no mistake. This ain't benchrest.

In the rough and tumble world of Precision rifle you will be shooting in awkward and uncomfortable positions, you will be on the clock, and moving.

Don't get me wrong. I want every last bit of accuracy I can wring out of my rig.

However, your skills will go farther toward determining your score than any miniscule accuracy advantage you might gain with a bolt gun or exotic caliber.

If you are on a course with close up targets in the mix, the speed of the gas gun will work in your favor.

Much depends on the course design.

Don't be shy. Spend some time with the rifle, work up a good load and spend some ammo on long range practice.

Learn how to deal with the wind and know your trajectory well when you step up to the firing line.

If you do that, you can definately be a respectable competitor with that rifle.

Optics are another matter.

You will be at a substantial disadvantage with anything less than a 20x.

Magnification is not the only issue, clarity, repeatability of adjustment, type of reticle, etc. are all important.

In this game a quality optic is a must.

Tls

[dt1]

^^^^^ Comments are spot on, particularly with regard to optics. You won't necessarily need a $3k S&B but you'll need more magnification than your 1-6x will give you. Check out Vortex and Bushnell for more economical options. The 308 JP is perfectly fine to get you going. You'll find that most of the serious competitors shoot 6mm and 6.5mm calibers. They shoot faster, flatter and cheat the wind more effectively than a 308. A few of the top shooters in the PRS have dabbled with gas guns but most shoot bolt rifles. Every now and then there will be a stage that is "gas gun friendly" in a match but not often. Bolt actions are plenty fast to operate in these events.

Regarding the PRS, the organization was formed to give shooters a structured series of matches to compete in with a season ending ranking and champion. It is, of course, an imperfect system and there has been some controversy associated with it. You don't have to join the PRS to shoot the matches and there are many long range matches outside PRS you can shoot as well. The advantage of shooting in PRS events is that you'll be exposed to many excellent shooters which is a good way to get better.

There is a competition thread on Snipers Hide where you'll find announcements and info on just about every long range match out there. http://forum.snipershide.com/tactical-shooting-competitions/. It's fun stuff! Good luck if you decide to start participating!

[Finbox]

Keep in mind, that most PRS shooters/tactical match/bench rest shooters are all about accuracy.

When most say their guns shoot 5/8" groups it's 5, 5 shot groups then averaged. (25 shots total).

Most everyday shooters state their best one group ever with their rifle as their group size, there is a huge deference.

I had a friend that loved his gasser ( at the time he did not own a bolt gun)and placed in the top 20 in some matches and bragged about how great the AR was.....then he shot a bolt gun in a match and placed 3rd, and now constantly places in the top 10. He now calls the gassers ankle weights.

My advice buy a nice scope ( bushnell 6-24 with the G2 reticle great for the $) mount it on your AR have fun at matches, and if you like it move the scope to a nice bolt gun and be more competitive.

[ShooterSteve]

The Bushnell scope listed above is the exact scope I'm looking at. Hey does anyone shoot H335 with heavy bullets? It shoots great with my 55's but I haven't tried it with heavier stuff. I have a bunch of it and I see it can run about 100 fps faster than the varget. I know I could just go try it, but if a lot of people said that they didn't get the best results, I'd just stick with the varget. I also looked at the uppers in 6ar turbo 40, I've got the itch bad.......hey you people have gotten me in a lot of trouble!!! My accountant and financial advisor is PISSED! Do you know her?

[ShooterSteve]

Also, I understand about the group average. My 308 in ar and bolt will shoot the same load, and both will shoot a 5 shot group with all the holes touching if you do your part. When I first bought the ar it wouldn't group better than 7" at 100 and I was very let down. Took it home and got to work on it and found out the scope mount was loose and did a trigger job on it. Took it back to the range. First group went .450". I was absolutely skeptical and knew it was just luck until it started doing it over and over.

[Finbox]

Dvor (optics planet)has the scope on sale for $820

[38superman]

Just a few more words for you guys wanting to give Precision Rifle a try.

If you are thinking about getting involved and you just want to test the water, your gasser will do okay.

It doesn't matter what hardware you show up with at your first few matches.

You will not scare the elite shooters.

I shot my first precision match in November of last year, and it was the most fun I've had shooting in a long time.

I was running a heavy barrel AR-15 in .223 that had been set up for varminting.

The gun has a JP 3.5 lb. single stage trigger.

I put on a Horus Vision 5-20 x 50 with an H-25 reticle and a Magpul PRS stock.

This is not the ideal precision rifle but it was certainly servicable.

I was a late entry to the match and had very little chance for any preparation.

The longest shot I could take at my practice range is 100 yds.

That makes it pretty hard to get ready for a long range match.

However, armed with some factory 68 gr Nosler Competition loads and my shiney new Horus ballistic calculator,.. I jumped in.

I was able to consistently hit targets out to about 550.

Once you get beyond 600, you start to bump up against the limitations of the .223

I finished 42 in a field of about 65 shooters.

Nothing to write home about, but under the circumstances, I was okay with it.

I certainly didn't want to embarrass myself, but I also knew I wasn't going to take the world by storm in my first try.

It was a learning experience. A chance to try something new and have a good time doing it.

The moral of this story?... Go for it.

You will figure out what works and what doesn't soon enough.

Check out the photo, taken at the match. My rig is the second from the front.

Notice that there are 6 guns on the table. 3 gas guns and 3 bolts.

Tls

[427Cobra]

First off I have not shot a single PRS Match, but I have ROed every single PRS Match in TEXAS but one at Rifles Only last year, most I shot the COF to prove the shots are possible given the time allotted, the problem with semi autos is the shooter misses too fast, given a 30 second time limit and a bolt gun, most shooters who miss there shot will make there second(reduced points) quit easily, time and time again I witnessed a SA guy who misses the first shot gets in a hurry and misses again, ZERO, and when the stage calls out for "Bolt Back Mag Out" a SA shooters wastes too much time ejecting a round he spent his off time reloading, and no time is given to retrieve those rounds because that slows down the rest of the shooters, most of the targets are 1MOA, on paper a SA should be able to compete no problem with highly accurate(.25moa) bolt guns, but in the PRS the winner is the guy/girl who hits the most targets -therefore receives the most points, he/she who shoots the fastest most accurately is not part of this game.

[taliv]

PRS matches are not all the same. Some matches have a lot of paper inside 100 yards and accurate gas guns would do fine, even be an advantage. Other matches are mosty prone and long distance in places with a lot of wind and they really won't be competitive. Some matches are not gas gun friendly because they may require you to move from barricade to barricade with bolt back and magazine removed (though most matches are allowing movement on 'safe' these days).

Most guys will run most stages on 10-12 power, sometimes less when movers or lots of big targets are involved, a lot more when it's prone on paper. I can't remember using less than 8x in a match and i often use 25x and would use 30x if i had it. I probably would not go above that if i had more.

If your eyesight is good, 10x would get you by on most matches. there will be two challenges. one is when you have to mil targets to determine their distance, more magnification will really help. the other is when you're shooting at a 1/2 MOA plate that was painted several squads ago and is now a mottled grey blur. again, more magnification will help you pick the target out.

that said, i wouldn't let equipment keep me from coming out and having fun. you won't be the only one out there looking to upgrade