First match under the Green book

[Flexmoney]

We ran a December match on Saturday.

The question that came up was, "do we have to shoot from every position"???

We had a stage with a bunch of openings. Looked something like this:

ChangingGears.doc

[dajarrel]

Flex,

It mayjust be my computer but when I open th attachment, all I got was the "frame" of the picture and score sheet. There were no lines or targets on the first page with the info about the stage.

dj

[Ed K]

The course description does not say that you must stop at every location. It just says "as they become visible".

Ed

[Flexmoney]

Flex,

It mayjust be my computer but when I open th attachment, all I got was the "frame" of the picture and score sheet. There were no lines or targets on the first page with the info about the stage.

dj

It a 25 round field course. Walls and barrels, such that there are 7 "openings" available, but a shooter wouldn't have to go to all 7 openings to get all the targets.

The course description does not say that you must stop at every location. It just says "as they become visible".

Right. The shooting is freestyle (as it should be), but the course of fire (COF) is illegal under the new rule book. 1.2.1

[herky]

Shot it, great course. If this course of fire is illegal, something is wrong with the rules.

[BDH]

Flex,

It mayjust be my computer but when I open th attachment, all I got was the "frame" of the picture and score sheet. There were no lines or targets on the first page with the info about the stage.

dj

Me too....

[EricW]

Sounds like a rule in need of rescinding.

[Flexmoney]

Let's see if this works...

ChangingGears__web_.htm

[Flexmoney]

or this...

[vincent]

I used right click and "Save Link As.." to save the document to my desktop and then opened it in Word. It came up fine that way.

I assume you are referring to the part of 1.2.1.3 of "..., nor allow a competitor to eliminate a location or view in the course of fire by shooting all available targets at an earlier location or view."

Not having seen the actual stage it's hard to tell the angles. What is the problem? Is it that you may not need to shoot at the second to last position?

[JFD]

Damn, according to the rule it does sound like this stage is "bad", but the course description could have straightened it out. In the case of this stage, the rule is just screwing with the stage designer.

Of course IMHO, if the course description had mandated that targets be engaged from each position (making the stage "good"), yet still visible as they are in the diagram, that would seem to put a crimp in the freestyle aspect of the sport.

I'm not close to being an expert (at ALL), so I'm going to be interested in how this thread goes.

At our match Saturday, we had a couple of issues that sort of bugged me, although only 1 pertained to the new rules. Issued #1 was one of those upside-down static targets (normally they have a bunch more of them). Issue #2 was having to fire 16 freaking rounds at 8 targets before being allowed out of the first box. Not a good day to shoot Limited with a single stack.

[Vlad]

Sounds to me like this rule goes against the freestyle ideal and a really dumb idea. That aside I'm curious what happens if you have that stage and everyone shoots it using all the positions but the last guy figures it out and skips one. Does the stage get thrown out?

Can you define the whole stage as being one big free fire zone and thus calling it one "position"?

Vlad

[Nik Habicht]

I assume you are referring to the part of 1.2.1.3 of "..., nor allow a competitor to eliminate a location or view in the course of fire by shooting all available targets at an earlier location or view."

"Earlier" might be the key word. Assuming that you start at the XXs, and further assuming that the angles work out that you can shoot T7 and the poppers from an early position, I'd argue that the placement of T8 is such that it must be engaged from the last position --- even if it's by virtue of a long shot without the shooter running all the way down there. In other words imagine that there's another wall down there to the right, leaving a sort of doorway/port that frames T-8. Odds are that you wouldn't have to actually run up to it, in order to be able to see or engage T-8. Merely sending the rounds through the port or doorway, would be using the last position.

[Nik Habicht]

Can you define the whole stage as being one big free fire zone and thus calling it one "position"?

Vlad

Sure --- but it'll have to be a really short stage...... 8 or nine rounds max. I'd have to look the exact rule up --- and I'm at work.....

[warpspeed]

So if you have a "view" or port as part of the COF, there has to be at least one target than can only be engaged from that view ?

[omnia1911]

I believe the intent of 1.2.1 is to make sure that all available targets can't be shot from a single location or view (the sweet spot), thus making the remainder of the stage design mute. I don't think it is referring to all remaining targets. Without being there, it looks like there are at least 2-3 views/locations that you have to take to see all of the targets.

I think your stage is compatible with the rule book.

As to being required to use all the ports/positions/views in the COF? No way.

1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3 could use some clarity in their verbage.

[Flexmoney]

"Earlier" might be the key word.

In a freestyle stage, earlier has no meaning, right?

Merely sending the rounds through the port or doorway, would be using the last position.

That was what some shooters were talking about doing.

We don't need shooters burning round to meet a requirement that isn't part of the shooting problem...and increses the likelyhood of safety issues.

Anyway...the rule isn't about what the shooter does. The rule is about what makes a legal stage.

So if you have a "view" or port as part of the COF, there has to be at least one target than can only be engaged from that view ?

That is how the rule seems to read.

[JFD]

I hope that isn't the case.

I've set up stages sort of like the one here. Mainly providing such a position (such as the next-to-last position on the stage here) as a place where Production and L-10 shooters can shoot after reloading. No positions were mandated on the course description, so the big stick shooters could simply ignore it if they wished.

[omnia1911]

I think the intent of the rule was to prevent shooters from "taking advantage" of a stage design by standing in one location and shooting at all of the targets, including doing static reloads. Sometimes when you try to put corrective actions in the rule book that should be left to stage designers and match officials to figure out and correct, you create more confusion. The rule book isn't the best place to prevent poor stage design.

[Jake Di Vita]

There were 4 required shooting positions in this stage.

If the rule means you have to shoot something from every port, I'll come straight out with it and call it asinine.

One of the biggest things about USPSA is to be able to break down a stage and shoot it the way you want. If you figure a way to game the stage and shoot everything from one position, more power to you. It does not give you a competitive advantage because other shooters in your division can figure it out as well. All that means is it was bad stage design.

[Nik Habicht]

In a freestyle stage, earlier has no meaning, right?

Sure it does --- and earlier location is one prior to the one where you shoot your last rounds on the stage. In some cases, stage designers create stages that force every competitor to end up at the same final position; in other cases everybody ends up in a different last position.

  Merely sending the rounds through the port or doorway, would be using the last position.

That was what some shooters were talking about doing.

We don't need shooters burning round to meet a requirement that isn't part of the shooting problem...and increses the likelyhood of safety issues.

I wasn't advocating sending a round willy nilly anywhere to satisfy the requirements of the design or the stage description. I was suggesting that because you put out a wall with a port and some targets behind it, doesn't mean that you have to set the targets in such a manner that they have to be shot from close proximity to the port. I often use walls with ports that are feet or yards removed from the fault lines that make up the free-fire zone.

I am suggesting that it's legal stage design to set the far right target on that stage so that it can be engaged as soon as the shooter turns the corner. The shooter certainly has the option to move up to get closer to the target, and probably to the steel array, if they choose.

I think you are reading more into this rule than you should --- or are still approaching course design from the "every round pust pass through a port of some kind" school of thought. Vision barriers and a free fire zone, baby --- that's where freestyle is at. Position? What's that? Oh, yeah, I think I remember shooting boxes......

Nik --- who still thinks that Stage 23 was the only free-style stage in the 2004 Nationals, and even that one could have benefitted from some targets within the free fire zone

[Nik Habicht]

Let's look at this some more. The IPSC Handgun Competition Rules, USPSA Version, January 2004, say this:

1.2.1.3 “Long Courses” must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction must not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to eliminate a location or view in the course of fire by shooting all available targets at an earlier location or view.

I'm interpreting this to mean that the shooter shouldn't be able to find a sweet spot in the stage from which he can engage all the targets. Could this be clearer? Sure.

While Location is defined in the rulebook, view and all are not......

Note to rule writers: The same language is part of 1.2.1.2........

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Rules 1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3 were not written as part of the last marathon rules changes which resulted in the January 2004 Edition - they were actually modified earlier during the "interim" IPSC 2002 Edition rulebook. In any case, the rules were vaguely drafted, and this is why the Rules Committee decided in Bali last week that the following official rules interpretation will be issued ASAP:

1.2.1.2 "Medium Courses" must not require more than 16 rounds to complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design and construction must not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to eliminate a location or view in the course of fire by shooting all available targets at an earlier location or view shoot at all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

1.2.1.3 "Long Courses" must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction must not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to eliminate a location or view in the course of fire by shooting all available targets at an earlier location or view shoot at all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

In other words, you should be allowed to attack the stage whichever (freestyle) way you choose, but course design must not give you the opportunity to shoot all targets from a single location or view.

Hope this helps and clarifies.

[Skywalker]

Vince,

this definitely clears all the interpretation issues.

I have one more question: if rules 1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3 already state that "...Course design and construction must not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view...", isn't the second part of the statement ("...nor allow a competitor to shoot at all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view." redundant?

Is it possible to have a 28-rounds stage (where no more than 9 scoring hits are available from any single location or view) shootable from any single location or view?

I guess the second sentence of the rule could be totally dropped, since the first part of it should cover all possible situations.

[Vince Pinto]

Luca,

The words "must not require more than 9 rounds" means that you can make more than 9 rounds visible from a single location or view, but you should not force competitors to shoot the "surplus" targets from that same location or view.

In other words, you might have 9 shots which are available exclusively from Point A, but you can have other targets which might be tougher shots from Point A, but they would be easier shots from Point B or C.