Jaycwebb Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I completely agree with having new shooters "pay their dues", before shooting a major match. It's exactly how I started. I have worked matches from the first day that I have started shooting 3-Gun. I RO all the local majors as well as host monthly matches at our range. As you said, It is a lot of work for not much of a thank you. There is a severe lack of involvement from the younger crowd in the management side of this sport and its pretty sad. Hopefully that will change but it doesn't look good. Yes because who I need RO'ing major matches are people who have no idea how to shoot the game they are officiating. Don't you get it? The new people have to suffer. Apparently that's the best way to get them to stick with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Hope your not implying that new shooters need to RO as in run the timer. That is pure silliy talk. Having them serve as assistants I agree. I want a trust worthy person holding onto the timer running behind competitors just in case of slips, trips, falls, or confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Hey you already have guys who don't know anything about R.O.ing alreadydoing it young or not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) I completely agree with having new shooters "pay their dues", before shooting a major match. It's exactly how I started. I have worked matches from the first day that I have started shooting 3-Gun. I RO all the local majors as well as host monthly matches at our range. As you said, It is a lot of work for not much of a thank you. There is a severe lack of involvement from the younger crowd in the management side of this sport and its pretty sad. Hopefully that will change but it doesn't look good. Yes because who I need RO'ing major matches are people who have no idea how to shoot the game they are officiating. Valid point, but I wouldn't mind them setting steel or running in the puckerbrush taping targets on day 3! Edited September 26, 2014 by bmiller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Valid point, but I wouldn't mind them setting steel or running in the puckerbrush taping targets on day 3! There is that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 The original question: 'Does 3-Gun need a Governing Body' remains. My feeling is that a conference, similar to the Columbia Conference that started IPSC might be in order. If say 15-20 of the MDs of the biggest best run matches were to somehow get together and hammer out the differences in the rule sets and then set up or align with say 3GN or maybe even USPSA and run all the big matches by that set of rules, everyone would know what to expect. The stage designers could design and the shooters could prepare. Would there be a cost associated? perhaps, but if either USPSA or 3GN were the lead and I am a little bit leaning towards USPSA as it is a not for profit, we might have 'sanctioning' and a method of certifying ROs and CROs for the sport that could influence some reluctant clubs to allow us in and some skittish ones to allow us to stay and play. We would also have a ready made institution to handle the overhead details between clubs and matches. And then again I could be just plain off my rocker here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Hope your not implying that new shooters need to RO as in run the timer. That is pure silliy talk. Having them serve as assistants I agree. I want a trust worthy person holding onto the timer running behind competitors just in case of slips, trips, falls, or confusion. I dont think anyone was implying they should be the CRO on a stage. I know I wasn't. Having someone there to assit and run scores will help out the veterans of the sport as well as teach the ins and outs to the future of the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) Double tap Edited September 26, 2014 by LoganbillJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) And I'm afraid you're not getting the answer you want. I (and a few others here) think not. I'm not saying anything against anyone's rules sets. But, setting up a bureaucracy to add to the amount of stuff I have to deal with is not something I, as a match director, am interested in. If you are "governed" there is governing happening. Right now, to run a match as part of USPSA, you need to get your stage designs okay'd by someone at USPSA. There will be fees. Someone is going to have to pay for airfare, food and transport to get these good people together to make this common rule set and govern. That means you will be paying more. Most of us are already volunteering our time. Can't afford to volunteer our money for transport to go make some more bureaucracy! I'm a Libertarian! Keep it Simple. Keep it safe! With bureaucracy comes politics...which we have enough of as is! I understand you think everyone can agree on a few simple things, but as you read this forum...we can't agree on a "safe" gun, safe distance for steel, divisions, equipment, we agree on pretty much nothing!!! If you really like a governing body, shoot USPSA. They have improved their rules and matches so much (with much thanks from those annoying, disagreeable outlaw matches) and are having many Area and National matches that are worth your money to attend. All USPSA matches are the same, with the same rules. You know what to expect and what equipment you need. Your governing body is there and you're already paying them with your membership to USPSA! Solves the whole problem. If it is difficult to read the outlaw rules before you go, then just stick with USPSA. More matches all the time. Just started some local USPSA 3-Gun in Colorado. Yeah!!! My...rather more than $.02! Denise P.S. Not to be poopy, but if you look at the poll, the question has been asked and answered! P.P.S. So many of the things the new shooters take for granted...dump barrels, more than one gun per stage, moving down range of the gun, slings, just to name a few...all came about because people did not like the "consensus of any of the ruling bodies." They wanted to try something new to make it more fun! I think they succeeded. But, as I have posted before...if you do not have "mavericks" that try new rules, nothing changes. Why was USPSA able to make some of their changes? They had the examples at the "outlaw" matches so they could show that the ideas worked. Once you have a "governing body," change is much more difficult if not impossible! Just sayin'! Edited September 26, 2014 by Benelli Chick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I have to sort of disagree with the Benelli Chick. Sort of... You DON'T have to get your stages approved and you don't have to have USPSA HQ Staff. That only applies if you want to be Level II or Level lll, if all you want to do is run a match, the MOST you need to send to USPSA is $1.50 per shooter unless you run a classifier, then you add another $1.50 per shooter. An organization, any viable nationwide organization SHOULD give us as MDs the benefit of a set of rules that is vetted (more or less) and a pool of trained, mature, talented, honest, hardworking Range Officers. OK< not all ROs are any of the above let alone all of the above and there are a slew of people out there that are qualified but not certified. So, we get them certified. This CAN lead to acceptance in places where we are not allowed and it could keep us from losing places where we are allowed now, but on shaky ground and all it would take is one board member to leave and we'd be gone. Now, if you want to run a 'National Championship' or a Continental or Hemispherical Championship, you might need and may even want a National Organization behind you. I understand that as it currently sits, MOST of the outlaw 3-gun matches fill up and most seem to get all the staff they need, but 3-Gun is growing. That growth can be really good or it can kill us off. If we have the wild west with regards to rules and problems crop up, that could be a bad thing, The new matches that are starting up by people that attend other matches, but don't currently run 3-gun will be trying to create what they saw. They'll borrow some here and some there and make up the rest and sooner or later that will bite someone really hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) Certified match staff is a whole 'nother ball of wax. We have our own RO clinics to build up our RO base for natural terrain, because ROing at JP RM3G is COMPLETELY different than a berm match. Big "governing" organizations can certify people by email with no experience. USPSA gives an RO clinic the day before nationals, so they can get enough certified RO's to work the match. I understand that many people in the world today want guarantees about...everything. But a governing organization does NOT guarantee good RO's. My personal experience doesn't guarantee good RO's. There are NO guarantees. I feel that JP RM3G has some of the best RO's out there. There are very few of them that are certified with anyone! Some of the ones that ARE certified with USPSA are AWESOME!! Some of them that I found at a local match and trained up myself are AWESOME!!! We vet our RO's personally. Are we always right with our judgements??? Mostly! I think most of the other "outlaw" matches do the same. Sometimes, you get a loser, but they don't come back just because they have a piece of paper. I am sad that, like in education, so many people want to eliminate common sense and personal values. They want everything to be the same. They are willing to give over their own judgement to a group of people called a "governing body." That doesn't seem to be working in the US or world politics, why would it work in a sport. Yep, you can talk about all those sports that have governing bodies and equal rules and say how fair everything is and how safe and law abiding all the participants are...think NFL! A governing body is no guarantee. In fact, it seems to me like it takes the responsibility away from the individual. I don't have to make a call whether this is safe, because it says so in this little book, so it must be so. How did you feel when USPSA went from 10 yds to 7 yds for pistol steel??? I and many of my friends wondered if we hadn't gotten enough frags earlier? We chose not to use that change except in some specific cases which we judged to be safe. Is a lumpy popper at 7 yds with jacketed bullets safe all the time??? See MarkCO on another thread! Yes, it is concerning when new people take up matches. But, most (not all) of the people I see are pretty darn responsible. Are things getting a little more crazy with the new popularity on TV of 3-Gun??? Yes!!! New shooters think they can run and shoot like the people they see on 3-Gun Nation. Does a governing body fix that? No! I believe if you see a shot you think is in an unsafe direction or at an unsafe target, it is your duty to our sport to point it out, not shoot it that way because everyone else did and you don't want to lose a half of a second. I have been told that THIS is not breaking the 180, but it seems to be to me or at least the 179. As long as I don't think it's inherently unsafe, I won't complain, but I won't take the shot there either. What does a governing body fix? (Oh by the way, to shoot USPSA matches, even at the local level, you have to be a member (pay$) or at least apply. More money there.) -Belonging to USPSA or something similar might give some credence to your club. But as you say without needing to okay stages, I'm not sure how that makes things any safer. Even with them okaying stages may not make them any safer. -New shooters can be told what equipment to bring to compete. Oh wait, everyone's different, so that really won't work. -People will be able to read the rules once a year and know how to mess up at every match they go to...I mean NOT mess up. -We won't have to argue on Enos whether this or that should be a DQ! I'm out of benefits. But, you can gain all these benefits by shooting USPSA matches and you're good! Negatives: -Creates bureaucracy. -Costs more for both match and individuals. -Dampens or even ends choice and creativity. -Makes for elections to figure out who governs...and trust me, you're not always going to be happy with the ones who are elected. -Gives "certification" to people for jumping through hoops, not necessarily through hard work and excellence. -Did I mention bureaucracy??? I know why Kurt went on a rant. The working part is kind of escaping some of you. As has been mentioned, it's a thankless job. Yet - you want to add more restrictions and govern the joy out of it for those of us stupid enough to do it. You want us to get together and argue and capitulate on things that we may not believe in to get consensus and a single set of rules to make someone else happy. My joy is setting up stages and seeing the smiles and the looks on people's faces after a good match. My joy is not being in a room playing politics in order to govern. I believe we need more personal responsibility, not less! I DO NOT want to give up my ideas to anyone so that some people don't have to read the rules. I believe if you look at the poll results, there are a decent number of 3-gunners who like the diversity of no governing body. I think they are the kind of people that I want to come to JP RM3G. By the way, I shoot USPSA as well as a number of "outlaw" matches as well as our own. I say again, as I look around the world today, I feel certain that we DO NOT need more government! Denise Edited September 26, 2014 by Benelli Chick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 BUT...if you really feel you need leadership, elect me Queen of 3-Gun! I PROMISE I will make a unified rule set. I will charge no one more money, because I can have a meeting with myself any time I want! I PROMISE you will LOVE all my rules and ideas! Anyone who wants to send $$$$ for my election as 3-Gun Queen campaign, PM me! I PROMISE I will be perfect and save the world of 3-Gun for all to enjoy throughout time! You will all love my ideas AND me OR ELSE! Hope and Change and Heil Johnson! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigLucky Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I agree with Denise. Most of the rule sets are pretty similar for the most part. We don't need any "governing body"... we need less government in our lives not more. Putting on a match is a ton of work. People have high expectations for things such as prize tables. As match directors people can only do their best to provide a product that people will continue to pay for year after year. Governing bodies sticking their noses in where they aren't wanted will just make that more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I'm guessing what Denise is saying is .. You have a federal government, a state government, a county government, a town government, a home owners association, and you guys want another ruling body making sure you are having fun the right way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Now she wants to be the Queen, AND has carpal tunnel from all that typing. Sorry JJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Denise is a Libertarian? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Now she wants to be the Queen, AND has carpal tunnel from all that typing. Sorry JJ. I had surgery for the carpal tunnel...I can type all day!!!! Bwahahahahaha!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Now she wants to be the Queen, AND has carpal tunnel from all that typing. Sorry JJ. I had surgery for the carpal tunnel...I can type all day!!!! Bwahahahahaha!!!! And retired from teaching so now has time to spend....doing what doing does or something like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oak hill Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 "If you can look into the seeds of time, and say which grain will grow, and which will not, Speak then to me . . ." Macbeth, act I, scene 1, line 58 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Never try and teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time, and annoys the pig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 yes, yes it does....and it should be RedNeck Tactical Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 yes, yes it does....and it should be RedNeck Tactical Trapr I'm sorry to be dim...are you saying RedNeck Tactical should be the Queen or the pig??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXMXRACER Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Well said Denise. Thank you Shane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 we should be the applier of the lipstick, not the wearer of it trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Trapr, you left too much out there with the lipstick thing, too easy, who is going to hit it out of the park? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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