P-16 for Limited

[twix]

One of my regular shooting buds buys a cheap used Para P16, Accu-rails the slide/frame, throws the rest of the parts out and has a gunsmith build the rest.

Sweet guns, run great, have a steel frame.

[JFD]

Something odd is going on.

I was talking to several folks at the match today, the same folks who had bad mouthed paras in the past. After mentioning I now have an interest in glocks, to a man they suddenly thought the para was the best option.

Most of which I agree with, as I've invested 35 years shooting 1911s. Basically it's heavier and has the same recoil characteristics I'm used to. Of course they came to the conclusion I'd have as much invested in a glock ready to race as I would a para. Again that's kind of odd since the S_I guys say a race ready para costs about the same as a S_I. I don't really know how this is possible since I can easily buy THREE Glock 35s for the price of a STI. That's a heck of a lot of glock accessories!

I had a chance to handle a glock 17 today to get the feel of a G22. Also handled a G35. Both had nothing more done to them than a 3.5 lb connector, and one had a magwell that looked like a JP. I liked the feel of the triggers and don't think it would be that hard to get used to them. While the 17 did point high for me, the magwell on the 35 changed my grip slightly and brough the point of aim back down to where it should be. Still, I haven't shot one in a while, so I want to do that. Definitely I'm getting a glock as a house gun for my wife if nothing else.

Of course I've shot a fair number of paras, so I know the only difference between them and my Kimber is a larger grip. The larger grip feels better to me than my Kimber, so this is hardly a problem.

I've come to the conclusion that shooters are passionate about their particular gun of choice and think everything else is crap. I'm cool with that since I did the same thing with golf.

I'm going to end up basing my decision on gut feel after I get some updated shooting experience with a glock 22 & 35, as the para holds no surprises. I'm also going to do more research as to the price of accessories even though I know a glock 35 for $550 is going to be cheaper than a para after I add my "must have" accessories.

Lucky for me I had a great match today with my Kimber. My screw-ups were less than what has become normal, but were the exact thing I've been working hard to eliminate, so progress is being made. I also shot the classifier very well, for sure a solid B run on El Strong & Weak Pres.

[s2000red]

Hey Jerry:

I told you the you would have as much in the glock. Heres why:

1. New holster. Yours won't work. $150

2. New barrel. You shoot lead. $200

3. Magwell, titanium striker and safety plunger, steel or tungsten guide rod, ghost rocket connector, Tommy to work on trigger. approx. $300.

4. Dawson sights. $130 for front fiber optic.

Now.

Glock 35 - $550

Acces. - $780

Total - $1200 - $1300

Nothing against the glock. I love them. But knowing what you have been shooting, I think the Para you consider is a better choice for you.

A-47844

[Flexmoney]

I don't care what you shoot...but, it doesn't cost that much to make a Glock competitive.

[JFD]

Jerry

I'm pretty sure your list of "must haves" is longer than mine

However I forgot about the holster. I'd have to stick with a Ghost, so for sure that's another $150 - $165 I hadn't thought about.

You've got me pegged as a lead shooter as well. The vast majority of my shooting is with lead, and will always be. While a $100 barrel for a G22 wouldn't be a big deal, the G35 that is my actual glock option would need a $200+ barrel for lead.

A para would take me an hour and a half to get used to, compared to who knows how long for the glock.

You and Ken made a good argument for the para Saturday and I was definitely listening. The recoil issue is important.

Hell, except for the classifier, the results from Saturday were so bad I really ought to switch to a slingshot. I thought I'd finish better than that. Must have been the cigarettes....next time I'll bring Winstons

I'm just hoping that when I'm ready to buy, that I can find a deal like I saw on the USPSA classifieds. A race-ready P-16 with a big handful of mags for $750.

I will be buying a glock though. Maybe not for USPSA, but I think a G17 would be just the ticket for my wife.

[s2000red]

Hey you know we're there for you. Whatever you need: cigarettes, support, or even someone to laugh at you.

If you want to play with different guns one day, let me know. Between Ken and I you can try about all scenarios.

Jerry

[JFD]

Jerry

When have you EVER had a cigarette of your own at a match????

Jerry

[JFD]

Flex

s2000red is an Open shooter, so take that into account when you check his "must have" list. I think they are all jaded by the "dark side"

[Liota]

JFD,

Buy the gun you like and learn to shoot it. Simple enough. It's personal preference. Shoot as many options as you have available to try and find what you like.

If you do go with the Glock, call Charlie Vanek and get him to work the trigger. His trigger jobs are absolute magic. I might shoot one next year for production. Keep in mind I have shot a Para P-14 and a Sig P226 in competition, still have and love both. Currently, I shoot an STI in Open built by Benny Hill. Benny is building my Limited gun, too. Most of it is personal preference. Two things drove my decision to go with the STI. One, my scores jumped by 10% immediately. Two, all of my friends shoot them, so finding spare parts and guns at matches is easier. Come to think of it, the second reason drove my caliber choice as well.

Liota

[s2000red]

GUILTY as charged!

[stryfox]

I have a p16-40 that was done by cylinder &slide.

It was accurailed, bersto barrel, c&s trigger group parts,ect.

I have been tinkering with it for a couple years trying to learn what I like.

I have over 10,000 rounds with no malfuntions.

It is my favorite 1911, Shoots nicer than my Wilson.

When all was said and done $$ I could have gotten a s_i.

Well maybe next time.

[statichead2k]

After shooting my kimber I was very unimpressed with the new para P-16 I got. The fit and finish just would not stand up to Kimber standards. The rear sight from the factory was a joke. I am not sure what was up with it and it may have been broken, but windage would change with each shot. And the factory trigger is not user friendly at all. I had my gun smith de-series 80 it and at the same time crispen and lighten it a little. In the end the trigger was very nice. In limited 10 I am happy with Kimber triggers out of the box.

I am not going to bash paras as I have seen some really nice custom jobs, but out of the box they are not quite limited ready. I ended up trading it for a Kimber single stack and then buying an STI .40. I like the STI a lot!!

[hopalong]

JFD,

I am shooting Revolvers now, BUT shot Limited with a Para p-16 Limited model for the prior 3 years to that.

If you go with a Para, IMHO just get the Limited Model, Change the back sight, as the Factory one is CRAP, put you a magwell on it, have a little tweeking done to the trigger and change out the factory PLASTIC mag button.

I have been through 100,000+ rounds with mine and have no complaints, If I had to start over in USPSA or any other type of shooting with autos I would do it again.

I see where some of the other forum members are saying they are not the same quality as their Kimbers ect.

Paras are NOT Kimbers, they Don't have the same Manufacturing specs and thus should not be compared that way.

This is what I have done to my P-16 LTD.

1 ED Brown magwell, (keeps it IDPA legal)

2 ISMI springs (16 recoil and 18 Main)

3 Trigger Job

This is what I have had to do to it after shooting it for 3 years:

1 CLEAN IT !!!! ( I too use lead except for MAJOR MATCHES)

2 replace factory back sight (which I think you should do anyway as the Para sight is CRAP)

3 replace Ejector (sometime in the 3rd year)

I use a CR speed holster and have used a friends STI EDGE in it they don't require any changing to use so the holster issue is not an Issue for me.

I am in the process of building an S_I and when I (IF I) go back to shooting Autos I will be going to it but will keep the old Para as a back up gun at matches and for friends to borrow and shoot at our local matches when I need to.

GOOD LUCK, I do have a glock but it stays in the house as a house gun so If I ever have to use a gun in the house and the law takes it I will not be missing much.

Hopalong

[roby]

ive gotten to shoot some paras that i really like and others i didnt. the factory barrel is fine, good enough to do what we need it to do. most ppl end up replacing the rear sight, and its a good investment. i think w/ a trigger job, some new sights, and a magwell, a para is a good investment to shoot limited with. one para in particular i really like started as a para and now the only para parts are the slide and frame. this gun is totally reworked, but it shot well out of the box as well.

i think your choice should be what you think is the best bang for your buck in getting a gun. in the end , you may spend the same amount of money on a para as you would a glock...things seem to even out in the end.

[Shipster]

I purchases a P1640 stainless Limited model in March of this year. It was a second hand gun but it had not been shot much at all, it looked new. The previous owner replaced the mag release button and the trigger set. I installed a Ice magwell and DP mag bases on the mags. I have over 5000 rds through it. I had one problem at a windy match in Bend OR., it got dirty and choked on a stage. I cleaned it, and it had run 100% before and since then.

[JFD]

Right now I'm 50/50 between the para and the glock 35.

The glock is the cheaper option, as I'd probably do no more than replace the sights, add a magwell, get mag extensions, and polish the internals. This is the same thing I'd do to the para, but since I have definite 1911 preferences, a lot more of the para parts are going to get trashed just to make it "feel" like my other 1911s. This is neither a positive or a negative, it's just how it is.

The main thing the glock has going for it is that it's different. After 36 years of shooting 1911s, it may just be time to give something else a try for a while.

It's all going to come down to gut feel when I'm ready to make the purchase.

[scorch]

Had A para Shot it for 2 years, every weekend, Had Mags expand about .005 width wise when load full and one stuck the trigger in the middle of a major match had to reset the trigger by hand after every shot till i changed the mag. Mine ran good till it got fine dust in the mags then look out. only once did I need the extra Capacity of the 21 rounds in the gun. (happen to be nine targets and 3 poppers) Which is what drew me to the para in the first place along with the price. When It was all said in done I replaced everything on the gun but the barrel slide and frame at the end of two years and then the slide cracked at the ejection port and I swapped it for a tricked out rugger 10/22. When I fiirgured out how much I spent on the gun to make it almost as good as an S_I. I could have bought a NEW Custom S_I and did. I have been VERY happy shooting it and my advice is if you are just going to PLAY in limited get a para- if your are serious get an S_I

I know Iam going to hear it from the para group, But if I had to do it all over I would just save my money and buy a custom S_I. Last flash Todds gun is a custom gun with just a para frame, I might be wrong but i think he use mostly S_I mags for the para.

[Paul B]

It's interesting that there are so many strong feelings about S_I vs Para. I shoot Para's almost exclusively (shot a Sig 226 for Production), but I do some amateur gunsmithing work for a friend with an S_I open gun. Both are really fine firearms and my guess is that the proponents of either are colored by their personal experience with one gun versus a comparison.

Both types of guns require that you put in a lot of "after market" parts to get them to last and shoot right. The S_I's come fromthe factory with a lot of these types of parts but the Para must have them added. Since I like a steel frame gun, I've always added the parts I wanted to the Para doing most of the work myself.

As for the stories about soft frames on Para's, they probably are softer, but this has not stopped mine from being very reliable and long lasting. One of my 3 open Para's has more than 100,000 rounds (115 Majors) through it and while the frame is not as tight as new the only thing that has actually broken were the S_I slides I put on the gunsmith frame.

My P16 Limited has 50,000 rounds through it and is dead reliable. I have, however, replaced the hammer, sear, front sight, mag well and barrel with after market parts. The cost is still under $1,000 and it has all the bells and whistles. My friends S_I open gun came from the factory unreliable and it has taken several years and gunsmiths to get it to shoot reliably. It is a sweet flat shooting gun now, though.

As for Para magazines, I've never had a problem. The capacity will always be +1 or 2 over the S_I equivalent. I get 22 +1 in my P16 with Dawson basepads. I've seen Todd shoot as an RO and when I saw him he was using Para mags - very well worn but Para.

I don't know what the life of a Para frame is because I have not found it yet. Some have problems with them, but I've seen just as many gun problems at matches with S_I's.

The ultimate differences may be the feel that you like and whether you like to add parts yourself or buy a more ready made gun.

[JFD]

I definitely like adding parts. Other than the barrel, slide and frame, my current L-10 Kimber is all aftermarket.

I was really very close to deciding on the glock 35, but having to replace the barrel just to shoot lead is irritating. Even if I stuck with jacketed bullets, there's the bulged brass and Kb issue that makes me uncomfortable.

Lucky that after suffering a mild case of burnout early this year, I've shot several matches lately and have gotten fired back up. My Kimber has been treating me so well that I'm not in a big hurry to buy a limited gun. I've got visual patience issues that are the big priority right now, so what gun I'm using isn't that big of a deal. I figure I'll stick with the Kimber until after the SC sectional, then decide if I want to buy a stock para and add parts, or just get a custom gun that's ready to go.

[Flexmoney]

... there's the bulged brass and Kb issue that makes me uncomfortable.

I think there is plenty of mis-information out there on that.

Most Kb issues are reloader related (meaning the guy pulling the handle).

[AZGunut]

Hi there,

I just wanted to add my two cents. I am by no means an expert, and I mainly shoot IDPA, not IPSC, so take this with a grain of salt, but I own 2 para P-16's and a Short Dustcover SVI in 40 and I personally prefer the Para's. My one Para P16 is set up basically the same as the SVI (BoMar rear, Dawson front, Brown Beavertail, Thumb, Magwell, etc. ) and I shoot the Para much better. To me the Para is more conisitent in recoil, and the gun just feels a little beter to me. I have also found that my 6 Para Mags always run and in my SVI I had to try different followers, spring combinations to get them to run while the Para mags are 100% factory stock.

[JFD]

I agree that there's likely a lot of mis-information around concerning bulged brass and Kbs, but damned if I can sort through it enough to feel comfortable.

Saw a thread on glocktalk that looked likely, but basically they just covered that some Kbs were actually blown case heads. Personally I don't care what the nature of the failure is, I don't want failures period, be they Kbs or blown case heads. I did that in the early 70's with the old style .38 Super barrel and .38 Super loads in .38 Auto cases. My preference is to not repeat my early shooting experiences.

Whatever the truth really is, I'd always have nagging doubts about the Glock. From my golf experience, having nagging doubts about one's equipment is a very bad thing.

I'm used to shooting and loading .45s, where there are no issues with bulged brass or blown cases. I don't want to create brass problems(real or imagined) with a glock.

The advantages of the para include no brass problems (that I know of), basically a 1911 with a larger grip (I like a larger grip), which has been my gun of choice for the last 30+years, lots of parts interchange with parts I already have, I already know how to take it apart and have it function correctly when I reassemble it, and I get to keep using my Ghost holster. I'm also at a point where I can see myself advancing into A Class with just a bit more visual patience, and don't want to be messing around with a new gun at this point in time.

While the para is going to cost more, using my same ghost holster saves me $165 right off the bat. Not having to replace the barrel is another $200, so there's not much of a money difference between the para and the glock.

I will be getting my wife a G17 this year as a house gun, and hopefully it will be something that will draw her out to the range a bit more often. I could play with it in Production if I felt the urge.

[JFD]

I've been checking the Dawson site and want to make sure there's only 1 extension offered for the P-16. The description says nothing (at least where I looked) about how many rounds it adds, or whether the spring is included or not.

I'm thinking of just buying Para mag tubes. The factory spring is going to be useless with the extensions isn't it? I'll save $19 per mag and I don't think aftermarket followers will cost $19. I still have to check that out, as I've been looking at a lot of glock stuff lately and don't trust my memory.

Can anyone give me a rundown of exactly what I need to buy in order to get para mags that hold at least 20 rounds, and won't break my hand trying to slam them in place? I've gotten enough of that trying to reload with my Wilson .38 mags.

In theory the gun should come with at least 1 standard cap mag, but I'm guessing it will end up being some stupid 10 round thing that will be my barney mag.

I'm guessing three 20+ round mags will be a good start + whatever I get with the gun.

I do now have a .40 conversion for my SDB & at least 2000 prepped .40 cases that I've been collecting, so I'm on my way.

[waktasz]

Mine (bought in October) came with 2 ten round mags, and I complained to Para and they sent 2 16 rounders to my dealer for me for free.

[JFD]

If I could get the same treatment I'd be quite happy.

I'm figuring on buying three 16 round mags, and if the gun came with another pair of real mags(or if para ended up sending them to me) I'd be done with my mag shopping.