Starting with gun "on" table

[Skywalker]

That can of slimy worms I did not want to mention...watch your back Sky...they are coming for you....

Did you happen to see the movie "Tremors"?

Do you remember what was the cure a gun-happy farmer applied to those worms?

It was some sort of .600" Nitro Express pills...

[Dead Buff]

Do you remember what was the cure a gun-happy farmer applied to those worms?

It was some sort of .600" Nitro Express pills...

Too small and slow on the reload - you'll need twin 20mm belt-fed (from 2 30ton trucks) to eradicate this plague....

[Jim Norman]

If the stage brief says "Flat on Table" and I lay my gun down say left side down, on the slide racker. The RO cannot make me turn the gun over. The stage brief did not specify a side and the gun is NOT artificially propped up, It is resting on an integral part.

Why do some think it is fair to make one shooter pick his gun up backwards from the normal positioning?

Is there some plan to disallow slide rackers? Isthere a plan to make another change to the rules that allows the RO to be A) Arbitrary in his interpetation? and require you to modify your gun from the physical condition it was in at the beginning of the match? Wouldn't requiring me to remove my 2" slide racker during the match be against the rules? If I were to simply modify my gun at each stage to suit the conditions, that would be against the rules, wouldn't it?

This is one of the things that occur when we have so many rules. Each rule of necessity becomes narrower and as it does, it actually opens more loopholes.

How about this start: "Gun loaded, lying on side on "X" on table, No artificial props allowed"

I think anyone reading this with a basic understanding of the english should be able to assume the intended start. Put your gun on the X after you load it and no you can't put anything on the table to hold the gun up.

On the subject of extended slide rackers, my safety, magwell and Muzzle support my Para of the table just enough so that the mag release is not able to touch the table and therefore cannot be accidently depressed when doing a tabletop start.

Would those that advocate the removal of the 2" Slide racker also have me remove my safety lever and magwell for this start? My gun is certainly not "FLAT" on the table.

We are debating the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin here. Some are trying very hard to impose very narrow views of how the rules should be, others are in favor of far less restriction. It is my opinion that the narrower we make the rules, the narrower will be the pool of shooters wanting to put up with IPSC and USPSA. In general the rules should follow some logical thread. If it takes more than a few minutes to learn the very basics of what it takes to get through a freestyle COF without penalty, then we have too many rules.

Example:

Stage Description: Start postion, Stand at the X, hands at sides, Gun loaded and holstered. After start signal, engage all targets.

Notes, PP1 opens Port 1 exposing T2&3. Opening Door will activate appearing/dissaperaing T4.

Simple. Now we add to this the rulebook, Failure to activate a target will incure procedurals for failing to engage the concealed targets and associated miss penalties. Not intuitive. You didn't see the targets so how can you engage them? You get a miss on the PP because you saw it, shot 5 rounds at it and failed to knock it down. Maybe you never hit it. Or maybe it is out of calibration. Explain the associated miss penalties to a newbie. We are getting to complex for our own good. The discussion regarding the definition of "FLAT ON TABLE" is a case in point. Lay the gun on the table, if you don't put anything under it that is not attached, it is as flat as it gets. The thumb ridge on a pair of grip panels will keep the gun slightly elevated. anyone actually have a perfectly flat sided gun? all the controls would have to be recessed or they will elevate the gun.

When making rules, the KISS or KISSASS method should be adhered to:

Keep It Short Stupid

or

Keep It Short, Sweet And Simple Stupid

Fewer rules that are well thought out require fewer subheadings and fewer interpetations. We have rules now that go 4 levels deep and then have an interpetation listed online to explain what the rules managed to miss. all this in an effort to rewrite an acceptable rulebook by a fixed date. It seems in retrospect that getting it done was more critical than getting it done right. I am sure that was not the mindset, but it is the effect.

So if you ask my to lay my gun flat, I will place it on its left side, I will not remove parts or grind down parts at the whim of an RO or MD or RM. THe gun is USPSA legal. If you fail to ask me to lay the gun down, you meerly ask me to place it onthe table, I will place it safely on the table, in any manner I damned well choose to.

Jim Norman

[bgary]

RO explains that, for consistency, "Gun on table" means "Gun on it's side on table".

That's (IMHO) giving the RO discretion and authority that the rulebook does not support.

If you believe it is reasonable that, when the course description says "gun on table", the RO may arbitrarily insert words and mandate that the course description really "means" gun *flat* on table....

...then would you also believe it reasonable, when the same RO inserts words into, say, the 180 rule, or arbitrarily adds new types of DQs under the guise of "unsafe gun handling", or decides that shooting targets in a different order than the other shooters warrants a procedural?

No!

The RO's job is to enforce what is *written*.

If there is confusion about what the *written* instructions mean, then it is the RM's job to decide what it means and *change* what is written, so that the RO can then enforce what is written.

Sticking to what is written is not only consistent with our heritage (freestyle), it is the ONLY way to ensure consistent officiating on a stage... because to allow ROs to "interpret" is to guarantee that different ROs will interpret differently, resulting in competitive equity.

Vince, sorry my brother, but unless you can point to a rule that says the RO has the authority to deviate from, extend or interpret the written stage instructions, I just don't buy it.

Bruce (either we have rules, or we don't)

[bgary]

If the WSB says "Gun laid flat on table" and the competitor is unable to comply because, say, his 2" slide racker is permanently welded to his slide, then the only option available to the RO is to issue a procedural penalty

As my grandfather used to say, "that's a bunch of hooey".

If I have a slide-racker on the left side of my gun, and I have positioned the gun so that it is not artificially propped up by anything that is not attached to the gun, then I *have* laid my gun flat on the table.

To suggest that 1) the shooter must modify their gun to remove anything that keeps it from laying flat on the slide, or 2) give the shooter a procedural for failing to comply, is complete nonsense.

Bruce

[Vince Pinto]

Bruce old son,

I will definitely respond to your comments, but I hope you'll forgive me that I must defer my reply until I return to Hong Kong in a few days time.

[kdj]

If the WSB says "Gun laid flat on table" and the competitor is unable to comply because, say, his 2" slide racker is permanently welded to his slide, then the only option available to the RO is to issue a procedural penalty, because the competitor would have an advantage over all other competitors who can lay their guns flat on the table.

Um ... I have a slide racker and a thumb rest on my open gun. When I lay it on its side, it is flat (i.e. if you put a level on the top, it would be "flat") but there's a 1" gap between the majority of the gun and the table.

Does flat mean flat?

Curious,

Kevin

[Jim Norman]

Just to open this argument up a bit:

I shoot my revolver, how would you have that laid flat upon the table? Would you have me mill one side of the cylinder off?

I think we or at least most of us understand that flat means you cannot place anything on the table under the gun.

Lets get a life here people. By the way, at last count there were 3.764395 million angels dancing on the head of the particular in in question.

Jim Norman

[omnia1911]

Luca,

See Rule 10.2.2.

If the WSB says "Gun laid flat on table" and the competitor is unable to comply because, say, his 2" slide racker is permanently welded to his slide, then the only option available to the RO is to issue a procedural penalty, because the competitor would have an advantage over all other competitors who can lay their guns flat on the table.

Yikes!!!!

Since when is a device attached to your gun not considered "the gun"? Isn't that how you justify the parts and equipment restrictions to "the gun" in Production Division?

If anyone shooting Open Division sees the slide racker as having a competitive advantage in table starts, they have the choice of making that alteration to their gun.

A penalty? I don't think so.

[shred]

Any Division-legal firearm must be able to comply with the stage proceedures without modification. Otherwise the proceedures are broken.

Extreme Example: I, as mean-ol-MD decide to hose all those uppity Open shooters and obtain an official IPSC box complete with top. I then declare in the stage proceedure "Gun starts in box, box closed".

How many proceedurals can I give anybody shooting a gun that doesn't fit? Surely not having to open the box is a significant competitive advantage, and I can ding per-shot-fired, right? Yee Haa!

[Singlestack]

Any Division-legal firearm must be able to comply with the stage proceedures without modification. Otherwise the proceedures are broken.

Very well said.

[omnia1911]

Luca,

See Rule 10.2.2.

If the WSB says "Gun laid flat on table" and the competitor is unable to comply because, say, his 2" slide racker is permanently welded to his slide, then the only option available to the RO is to issue a procedural penalty, because the competitor would have an advantage over all other competitors who can lay their guns flat on the table.

10.2.2 does not come into effect "because the competitor would have an advantage over all other competitors". A penalty is issued under 10.2.2 for not complying with a stage procedure. It is only after the competitor is in non-compliance that he may also be assessed per shot penalties if he is also getting a competitive advantage while doing so.

If the competitor lays his gun flat on the table, and a legally attached device to the gun restricts the amount of contact the gun has with the table, there would not be any contravention of the stage procedure. Therefore, the competitive fairness of that action should not come into question under 10.2.2.

[driver8M3]

i think someone has hacked into vince's acount and is playing a joke on us...at least i hope that what's going on...

[John Heiter]

I can't make you take off your slide racker and I really don't want to if it's a valid part of the gun. At our club, we have two inch holes drilled in the centers of our table start tables with an X marked on the table top. That way a gun with a slide racker can be made to lay flat on the table over the X. I do sometimes laugh though at the guys who come through when the description says "flat on the table over the X" and they put just the tip of a barrel or something touching the most extreme end of the X mark. It's not really what was intended but it's not precluded in the stage description so more power to them.

[Vince Pinto]

Holy Twisted Knickers, Batman! What part of my earlier comment:

"In other words if you, as I do, think it's unreasonable to require competitors to remove their slide racker, then competitors shouldn't be bloody-minded when an RO explains that, for consistency, "Gun on table" means "Gun on it's side on table".

is unclear?

And what the hell is a "thatble"?

[bgary]

What part of my earlier comment: (snip) is unclear?

The reference to the rule that supports that interpretation. I can't find it anywhere!

Let's try an analogy. When we say that the shooter must do something from within the box, that means that he cannot be touching the ground anywhere outside the box... because he can't be both "in" the box and touching ground outside the box. Standing on his tip-toes is OK. Foot on the top surface of the box structure is OK (unless the briefing specifically says otherwise). Standing with feet shoulder-width apart is OK.

Right?

Your interpretation seems more akin to the idea that "in the box" means "feet flat on the ground, heels touching, fully within the inner-most perimeter of the box structure." Which is *also* in the box, but it adds constraints and restrictions that are not found in the written materials.

I'll reiterate... I don't see any place in the rules that allows an RO to deviate from the written materials, and extend/interpret the written materials on his own.

So, if the course description says "gun on the table", I believe the correct interpretation is... "as long as the gun is not touching anything other than the table, it is on the table."

Bruce (Freestyle, baby!)

[Jim Norman]

Luca,

See Rule 10.2.2.

If the WSB says "Gun laid flat on table" and the competitor is unable to comply because, say, his 2" slide racker is permanently welded to his slide, then the only option available to the RO is to issue a procedural penalty, because the competitor would have an advantage over all other competitors who can lay their guns flat on the table.

Wouldn't this seem to indicate an intent to either make the shooter alter his gun or to penalize him?

Holy Twisted Knickers, Batman! What part of my earlier comment:

"In other words if you, as I do, think it's unreasonable to require competitors to remove their slide racker, then competitors shouldn't be bloody-minded when an RO explains that, for consistency, "Gun on table" means "Gun on it's side on table".

is unclear?

Now which way area we running here? Freestyle or COntrol of the shooters every move? Either THere is a rule that allows the RO to amend the WSB and create his own version or there is not. How would this be consistant over a 5 day long match where ROs may be on break and there may be rotation through the stages to releive ROs?

[Vince Pinto]

How would this be consistant over a 5 day long match where ROs may be on break and there may be rotation through the stages to releive ROs?

Matches I run have unambiguously clear written stage briefings, which are easily achievable by all competitors, so I never have such problems.

However it's not a matter of the RO "creating his own version" of the WSB - the RO merely ensures that all competitors adopt the same consistent start position, because freestyle applies to how the competitor attacks the COF after the Start Signal.

[Jim Norman]

Really? And what rule do you cite for that?

Are you telling me that if the start is "Gun on X on Table" you would require all shooters to lay their gun down in the exat same place, pointing exactly the same way? I put my gun on the X, on its left side, I am a righthanded shooter, the guy after me is a lefty, does he get to put his gun on the right side?

How do you address, standing in Box as in the start of the El Prez? Do you make everyone stand in the center of the rear of the box? Or to one side? Where is the authority for this? Freestyle is the name of this game. You want to me to do something at teh start that isn't spelled out or covered by the new one size fits all start position rule, then I will arbitrate it and unles you can show me a rule, i will win.

Jim Norman

[omnia1911]

Really? And what rule do you cite for that?

Jim Norman

Way to go Jim. I can see Vince churning out a new rule any day now. Don't encourage him.

[Vince Pinto]

Really? And what rule do you cite for that?

Rule 7.1.1.

Are you telling me that if the start is "Gun on X on Table" you would require all shooters to lay their gun down in the exat same place, pointing exactly the same way? I put my gun on the X, on its left side, I am a righthanded shooter, the guy after me is a lefty, does he get to put his gun on the right side?

Yes, I would require you to lay your gun on it's side facing directly uprange, but right and left-handed competitors are free to chose which side will face the table.

How do you address, standing in Box as in the start of the El Prez? Do you make everyone stand in the center of the rear of the box?

No. My written stage briefing would allow for competitors who wish to turn clockwise and anti-clockwise by stating "Facing uprange, standing naturally erect, arms at the surrender position with thumbs at ear height, toes touching inside of rear charge line".

Freestyle is the name of this game. You want to me to do something at teh start that isn't spelled out or covered by the new one size fits all start position rule, then I will arbitrate it and unles you can show me a rule, i will win.

Rule 1.1.5 states "Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis". For most people I know, the challenge commences at the Start Signal, not with the Start Position.

But, hey, go ahead and arbitrate. You pay your money and you take your chances. And if you really want a new rule, I'd be happy to propose one to the Rules Committee.

[Nik Habicht]

Vince: My written stage briefing would allow for competitors who wish to turn clockwise and anti-clockwise by stating "Facing uprange, standing naturally erect, arms at the surrender position with thumbs at ear height, toes touching inside of rear charge line".

Jim: Freestyle is the name of this game. You want to me to do something at teh start that isn't spelled out or covered by the new one size fits all start position rule, then I will arbitrate it and unles you can show me a rule, i will win.

I think you two are arguing about different things. Vince seems to be saying that when he RMs a match or CROs a stage, that the start position portion of the course description is written in a crystal clear manner, that allows for (virtually) no deviation from shooter to shooter. Vince, do I have that right so far?

Jim seems to be asking how one should start a competitor on a stage where the course description is vague as to parts of the start position. Jim seems to also think, that once the RM and CROs have reviewed the written stage briefing, the shooter should be free to start in any matter he chooses that complies with the start position briefing as written and the other rules in the rulebook. In other words, if the CRO reads off that the competitor's gun must start entirely on the table without overhanging the edge, and that's the only stipulation, then Jim believes he gets to decide whether his gun starts flat on its side, propped on a magazine or standing up on magwell and frame; whether the muzzle points straight downrange or at a safe angle to one side or another. Jim, do I have that right?

I would suggest that you're both correct --- for your respective scenarios, but I'm willing to be educated if I'm missing something.....

[Jim Norman]

Nik, You are correct in that I am saying as are others that if the WSB doesn't say it, it isn't there. Our friend seems to think that he can order consistancy whether the WSB has included it or not. In his own WSB, he may very well have eliminated all choice, I have no problem with that. But if his WSB only says as he has stated, Gun on the table, then any where on the table is on the table and any position as long as it complies with all the pertinent rules is ON THE TABLE.

[Nik Habicht]

Our friend seems to think that he can order consistancy whether the WSB has included it or not. In his own WSB, he may very well have eliminated all choice, I have no problem with that. But if his WSB only says as he has stated, Gun on the table, then any where on the table is on the table and any position as long as it complies with all the pertinent rules is ON THE TABLE.

Jim,

I'm not sure that that accurately describes what Vince is saying --- I'll await his reply.

[Vince Pinto]

Vince seems to be saying that when he RMs a match or CROs a stage, that the start position portion of the course description is written in a crystal clear manner, that allows for (virtually) no deviation from shooter to shooter.  Vince, do I have that right so far?

Yes.

However what I'm also stating is that if the written stage briefing is not as clear as it should be (never on my watch!), the RO has the right to require consistent start positions. In respect of the issue at hand, if the written stage briefing merely said "gun on table" without specifically defining the orientation, there's no way in the world I would allow the gun to be placed or propped upright.

And if a "prima donna" wanted to argue, I would be entitled to invoke Rule 2.3.3.1, but thankfully I've never had to deal with such bloody-mindedness.