Please define "air gunning"

[smokshwn]

Roy,

They certainly have gone above and beyond with respect to #1, 4 yrs and counting.

Anyway, I love to shoot, but the fact remains that there are problems. As with any process, we learn more about what we need to do the longer we do it. To deny that learning process is what seems to be happening at IDPA HQ. The intentions of IDPA's founders are not in question. However to try and halt progress/evolution dooms you to repetitive problems. Noone is trying to evolve IDPA into IPSC, that battle was fought when the sport was developed. But the BOD needs to realize that change/evolution is inevitable and to continue to deny will result in a negative result.

Take care, Craig

[Kingman]

3. Unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions, or the use of illegal equipment which, in the opinion of the match director, tends to make a travesty of the defensive shooting sport shall result in disqualification from the stage or the entire match at the discretion of the match director.

I posted that from someone else. I have a big problem with opinion. Opinions are like but holes. Every one has one and every ones is different. How can you guarantee the same thing if it is not strictly written.

[Mark Perez]

"However to try and halt progress/evolution dooms you to repetitive problems. Noone is trying to evolve IDPA into IPSC, that battle was fought when the sport was developed. But the BOD needs to realize that change/evolution is inevitable and to continue to deny will result in a negative result."

There's that "progress/evolve" thing again.

Evolve into what ??

Kingman ,

So you have a "big problem with opinion"?

Is that only when it contradicts yours ??

Tightloop ,

How about keeping the jabs at Wilson out of the conversation.

Getting back to the topic - airgunning .

Why do it ?

It's a warm-up.

Does it give the shooter a competitve advantage?

Yes.

If it didn't - you wouldn't be wasting your time doing it.

Does it contradict the principals of IDPA?

Yes.

Should airgunning earn you a PE?

IMO , yes - but if your club wants to overlook that - I don't have a problem with it.

Having a different flavor per club is just the nature of the IDPA beast .

I thought one of the charateristics of a good competitor was the ability to adapt - improvise and overcome .

Or was that just for the Marines ?

[Kingman]

Let me say I understand everyone's opinion is different.

Alot of people don't like mine, and I don't like alot of other peoples opinions.

I have no problems with differences in them.

I do have a problem with daily rule changes. Simply put ROTD.

I practice daily. I shoot 1000 rds a week every week. I don't understand "you gained an advantage by air gunning". Anything gained would have been gained in the work in getting there.

The rules of life don't change on a daily basis. BUT if we are talking real scenarios (which I think all shooting sports are games) you would NEVER engage a scenario with 18 rounds and 9 hostile people.

[Mark Perez]

"I practice daily. I shoot 1000 rds a week every week. I don't understand "you gained an advantage by air gunning". Anything gained would have been gained in the work in getting there."

Kingman

So then why do it?

Wait , let's try a different approach -

Why should I be allowed to airgun before LAMR ?

You pro - airgunners , convince me.

Mark

[Kingman]

basically. I don't really see what it hurts under the following conditions.

1. If you are not delaying the match.

2. You can not use your gun so you actually are not taking a sight picture. I beleive a large portion of the change in the new uspsa rules is that some people will almost do the whole stage during a sight picture.

3. You are not disturbing others

4. You are getting done what you need to get done ie taping, setting steel etc.

Basically if you airgun the stage in your time then ok by me. But if you are going to the line then doing it you are delaying the match. It all depends on when it happens. I have seen what happens when matches get delayed its not good.

[Dan Burwell]

Why should I be allowed to airgun before LAMR ?

You pro - airgunners , convince me.

First let me say that I have never airgunned in my life, not even in practice.

The reason you or I should be allowed to air gun? No rule against it!!!

I shoot IDPA because its the only game in town so I play by the rules. The rule book also doesn't say anything about running between shooting positions. Is it tacticle to run between positions sometimes sometimes not but I will do it every time. Why? because I want the lowest time I can get. Is that gaming? should I get a FTDR because I ran? I have had some at our local club threaten me with it.

The rules need to be stable for this game to be legitimate, not changed by every match director to make sure him or his guys win.

Dan

[Jake Di Vita]

Ok, you have ruled that airgunning constitutes an individual walk through....Should I also take that to mean you:

A - Can't be anywhere on the COF while pasting targets or setting steel.

B - Can't verify something with the SO as it would be individual

C - Can't point at the targets while asking someone something or explaining it to someone

D - Can't look over your stage and how targets look from certain positions if you are the shooter.

Does airgunning give you a competitive advantage? Probably. How about wiring your vest so your draw is quicker? Yes. Maybe putting wire in your pockets to they stay open more to ease reloads with retention? Yes, a large competitive advantage. Chances are I have a competitive advantage over the 450 pound guy because I run twice as fast as him. Should I get an FTDR for that? Certain belts give you a competitive advantage over others, trust me I know. Certain holsters are better than others, mag pouches, etc. Better sights give you a competitive advantage. Knowing your plan before you shoot gives you a competitive advantage. Somehow all these things are legal, yet airgunning is not.

If airgunning is illegal because it provides a competitive advantage, please do me the favor of explaining why everything else that I listed is not illegal.

I could keep going, but I think I've made my point.

What, my friends, is the point of having a rule book when decisions are made arbitrarily by the MD? How about if he doesn't like you, can he say your equipment is "making a travesty of defensive shooting?" Here's a question that I bet can't be answered.....What if the MD is wrong?

Here is my personal opinion. I think that some of the IDPA rule book is crap. But since that IS the rulebook, I am perfectly willing and able to follow it to the letter. But, instead of actually using the rule book in all situations (a constant factor which doesn't change), we now use the judgement of Match Directors at the match (a constantly CHANGING factor).

Heres an example, a few years ago we had a guy running an IDPA match here. He was affiliated, everything was legit. However, at the safety briefing at the beginning of the match he literally picked and choosed which rules he would be using and which he would not be using. How can the sport be the same with that. Is it still an IDPA match? Apparently so since so much judgement is given to the MD.

Before you say the same ridiculous thing you have been saying, "well you wouldn't argue if the MD's opinion was the same as yours" let me state this matter-o-factly. I don't CARE whether the rule coincides with my belief or not as long as it is the same way EVERY TIME.

So when I say the sport is immature, that is why. How can there even be a sport of IDPA if the matches aren't the EXACT same all across the country and world. Does any other sport compare apples to oranges like this? I think not.

Rant over.

[tightloop]

[scandog]

This is too funny. We have been having the same discusion on anothersite and .we see the same thing. A couple people like to use rules that have been made up, but are not a part of the rule book the rest of us try to stick to the rule book and then are told we should not shoot this sport.

I pulled the following straight from the IDPA web site for sanctioned matches.

*******************

Match Requirements:

1. The match will be open to a minimum of 75 contestants (including SOs).

2. The match will contain a minimum of 8 stages of fire.

3. The match will have a minimum total round count of 100 rounds.

4. IDPA rules as stated in the latest copy of the rulebook will be followed to the letter.

*********************

Look at rule #4. It states follow the rule book to the letter. I don't see where it says you can make up rules. The book defines a sight picture as drawing a pistol and aiming it. I have yet to see anywhere where it states "pointing your finger". If this is done while the entire group is walking through the stge, then it is not an individual walk through. If Bill wants this changed to be "No Finger Pointing", he has had almost 2 years to change it. I haven't seen anything in writing yet, so I guess he doesn't care.

I think some here need to start writing fantasy books, because the rules you are quoting are pure fantasy.

Daryl

[smokshwn]

Mark,

As far as the question of evolve into what? A better IDPA.

Do you honestly feel that there are no improvements to be made to the organization/clarity/coverage/definitions in the IDPA rulebook?

My term evolution maybe led you to think that I was trying to direct to more of a USPSA direction. That is not the case. My point was simply: anything that is stagnant dies. Only those things that improve on their strengths and reduce their weeknesses progress. IDPA has some improvements to make. Without that constant "evolvement" then the growth and strength of the sport will suffer. In many eyes it has.

Take care, Craig

[EricW]

2) Preventing an equipment race so shooters did not have to spend $3000 on a pistol to be competitive.

I'm sorry. I should let that one go, but I just can't. So, let the fashion show begin.

Sashaying down the aisle in lovely sharkskin undergarmets, are these fine offerings from the Dalai Lama of Tacticality himself:

$3595

$3495

$2950

$2180

For the budget conscious, one may revert to these lovely knockoff lines from Les Baer, with sexy, yet functional horsehide accessories:

$2530

$1699

And now for the outlandishly overpriced offerings from the un-Tactical infidels, clothed in racy, revealing, aluminum or even (GASP!) Kydex garb:

$2499

$1899

Approx. $2400

[Nik Habicht]

Chances are I have a competitive advantage over the 450 pound guy because I run twice as fast as him. Should I get an FTDR for that?

I've long believed that skinny guys like you should have to carry 150 lbs. of flour through stages......

but I suspect it wouldn't slow you down for long.....

BTW --- Great Rant!

[Nik Habicht]

....the rest of us try to stick to the rule book and then are told we should not shoot this sport.

I persuaded a few of my new USPSA buddies to shoot the 2003 IDPA Winter Championships at S&W with me. Before they'd even shot the first stage, a longtime IDPA shooter suggested they weren't welcome and should stick to IPSC. I've never heard of that being said to an IDPA shooter at a USPSA match --- it could have happened, but I haven't heard of it.

[shred]

Before they'd even shot the first stage, a longtime IDPA shooter suggested they weren't welcome and should stick to IPSC.  I've never heard of that being said to an IDPA shooter at a USPSA match --- it could have happened, but I haven't heard of it.

Well, you know, IDPA is the "Defensive" sport. I just wish some of them would be a little less defensive whenever anybody suggests that it might not be perfect as-is.

[Kingman]

Thats the thing I know I am not welcome at an IDPA match. When one of your friends that shoots IDPA says don't tell anyone you shoot IPSC or they won't like you.

But I agree with Jakes rant. He said it right. I do beleive all sports require specialized equipment its just different for each sport.

[Mark Perez]

The reason you or I should be allowed to air gun? No rule against it!!!

So far - no one has convinced me that airgunning is compatible with the following:

Course "Walk Through":

No individual course of fire walk "through" will be permitted. Each squad will be allowed a brief course "walk through" as the course of fire is being explained to the shooters in the squad. The degree and time permitted for this "walk through" is at the discretion of the safety officer in charge of the stage.

2. Any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage either by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment, or technique, will incur a twenty (20) second penalty (Vickers Count Stage) or a two hundred (200) point penalty (PAR Time Stage); this is the "FAILURE TO DO RIGHT RULE".

3. Unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions, or the use of illegal equipment which, in the opinion of the match director, tends to make a travesty of the defensive shooting sport shall result in disqualification from the stage or the entire match at the discretion of the match director.

Purpose:

Defensive Pistol shooting as a sport is quite simply the use of practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated "real world" self-defense scenarios. Shooters competing in Defensive Pistol events are required to use practical handguns and holsters that are truly suitable for self-defense use. No "competition only" equipment is permitted in Defensive Pistol matches since the main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not their equipment or gamesmanship.

I'm definitely in the minority here , holding the opinion that "airgunning" is just 'GAMEY.' Oh well - life carries on.

" Ok, you have ruled that airgunning constitutes an individual walk through....Should I also take that to mean you:

A - Can't be anywhere on the COF while pasting targets or setting steel.

B - Can't verify something with the SO as it would be individual

C - Can't point at the targets while asking someone something or explaining it to someone

D - Can't look over your stage and how targets look from certain positions if you are the shooter."

A. No.

B. No. Clarifications with the SO should be encouraged.

C. No.

D. Why not just do a full blown rehearsal / walk thru , is that what you are getting at?

"Heres an example, a few years ago we had a guy running an IDPA match here. He was affiliated, everything was legit. However, at the safety briefing at the beginning of the match he literally picked and choosed which rules he would be using and which he would not be using. How can the sport be the same with that. Is it still an IDPA match? Apparently so since so much judgement is given to the MD."

Technically - that isn't an IDPA match - the local AC should have been made aware of the situation and corrective actions taken.

I used to run an "IDPA+" match that used IDPA rules as a start - but it was announced ahead of time that the match was not to be considered a IDPA MATCH.

"I pulled the following straight from the IDPA web site for sanctioned matches.

*******************

Match Requirements:

1. The match will be open to a minimum of 75 contestants (including SOs).

2. The match will contain a minimum of 8 stages of fire.

3. The match will have a minimum total round count of 100 rounds.

4. IDPA rules as stated in the latest copy of the rulebook will be followed to the letter.

*********************

Look at rule #4. It states follow the rule book to the letter. I don't see where it says you can make up rules. The book defines a sight picture as drawing a pistol and aiming it. I have yet to see anywhere where it states "pointing your finger". If this is done while the entire group is walking through the stge, then it is not an individual walk through. If Bill wants this changed to be "No Finger Pointing", he has had almost 2 years to change it. I haven't seen anything in writing yet, so I guess he doesn't care.

I think some here need to start writing fantasy books, because the rules you are quoting are pure fantasy."

Daryl

Refer to above.They are straight from the pages of the LGB.

"Do you honestly feel that there are no improvements to be made to the organization/clarity/coverage/definitions in the IDPA rulebook? "

I've argued the samething , re: updating the membership by way of the IDPA website on any clarifying issues. On another forum , I even offered to post any rules correspondence on my AzIDPA site so that there would be a common place to review them.

There were no takers . The offer still stands .

Until that day ,

Mark

[Mark Perez]

Kingman ,

I am truly dissapointed that is the case in your area - if you are ever in Phx and want to shoot a match - we'll leave the light on for ya .

Mark

[tightloop]

Well Mark

I think the rules should be followed to the T, nothing more, nothing less..

but it reminds me of a match I shot when the AC could not show me a rule we disputed and he finally said, well I can't show you the rule, but that is the way they do it in Berryville and that is the way we are going to do it here...

That is just FREAKIN' LAME....and is an exact example of individual interpretation of the rules the LGB not withstanding...he just made up the ruling that suited him at the moment, and suffice it to say, it did not go my way...lol

Those are the kind of things we are trying to avoid and eliminate.....we need the rules, and nothing but the rules...and if it isn't in the LGB, then too bad for the shooters who did not understand it and use it to their benefit...and yes it is gaming..

As Clint Smith says when talking about real encounters...cheat every chance you get, it is the cheaters who win...that is REAL LIFE, and what IDPA purposes to depict...

[Dan Burwell]

2. Any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage either by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment, or technique, will incur a twenty (20) second penalty (Vickers Count Stage) or a two hundred (200) point penalty (PAR Time Stage); this is the "FAILURE TO DO RIGHT RULE".

3. Unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions, or the use of illegal equipment which, in the opinion of the match director, tends to make a travesty of the defensive shooting sport shall result in disqualification from the stage or the entire match at the discretion of the match director.

I guess using the same rational, we will all have to stop running as is an " innappropriate... technique" or maybe target transitions that are too fast should also get you a FTDR as how could you possibly identify a threat that quickly.

IDPA cannot afford to have people making rules as they go this will absolutly ruin a fun game.

[BigDave]

Mark,

I don't see how air-gunning is about gamesmanship, but rather I do think it is about shooting. On page 16 of the LGB:

Stability of Rules:

In order to maintain stability within the International Defensive Pistol

Association, equipment rule changes will only be reviewed every two (2) years.

Any equipment rule changes will go into effect 12 months after approval. IDPA

will NEVER be an equipment race; IDPA is about shooting, not equipment.

If practicing tac-loads is permissible between strings, why not air-gunning? With the first you are simulating what you would actually do under the clock. It isn't that we'd disagree with the rule if it was written that way, it is the fact that it isn't written that way that is the point.

I agree with TL - if you want to have rules, fine. But don't place the burden on the shooter when the rule wasn't written or thought out clearly or completely.

Dave

[Mark Perez]

"guess using the same rational, we will all have to stop running as is an " innappropriate... technique" or maybe target transitions that are too fast should also get you a FTDR as how could you possibly identify a threat that quickly."

Run , walk - when it's your turn on the line - do whatever you feel is appropriate.

"Target transitions that are to fast" ?

I thought that was the whole purpose of the exercise -

Tightloop ,

I agree , that was pretty lame what happened .

Personally , it would leave a bad taste about IDPA - but to continue taking cheap shots at Wilson/Hackathorn long after the event has occured has me wondering what the rest of the story is . Feel free to contact me offline if you want to share.

But now are you inferring the only way to win is to cheat ?

To use technique that is in conflict with the Purpose and Principals of the sport??

If you guys look att the typical stage , there are a few common characteristics :

3 to 5 targets .

1 reload .

A cover position or 2 .

maybe a no-shoot or hard cover.

For that - are you telling me that airgunning is necessary for the best performance ?

[Mark Perez]

Mark,

I don't see how air-gunning is about gamesmanship, but rather I do think it is about shooting. On page 16 of the LGB:

Stability of Rules:

In order to maintain stability within the International Defensive Pistol

Association, equipment rule changes will only be reviewed every two (2) years.

Any equipment rule changes will go into effect 12 months after approval. IDPA

will NEVER be an equipment race; IDPA is about shooting, not equipment.

If practicing tac-loads is permissible between strings, why not air-gunning? With the first you are simulating what you would actually do under the clock. It isn't that we'd disagree with the rule if it was written that way, it is the fact that it isn't written that way that is the point.

I agree with TL - if you want to have rules, fine. But don't place the burden on the shooter when the rule wasn't written or thought out clearly or completely.

Dave

Big Dave ,

If it's about the shooting , which you and Kingman have both referred to - then there shouldn't be a need to airgun before LAMR , correct ?

I still think airgunning is gamey and shouldn't be allowed at an IDPA match.

On the rare occasions that I get the chance to shoot an IPSC match - I'm in the conga line with everyone else .

Mark

[banjobart]

Against my better judgement I will comment further.

Last summer I hosted the 2004 Michigan IDPA State Championship. I wanted it to be a fun, fair IDPA competition for all to enjoy. It was. I read the rule book five more times before match day (readings #45-50 for me).

I knew that the airgunning issue would rear it's ugly head at some point during the match. I decided to take this tact and announced this at the shooters meeting:

There is no rule against airgunning in the rule book. I cannot assume that everyone here today has called IDPA HQ and been told verbally that airgunning is not allowed. So this is what we will do. During the squad two minute walk through after the stage procedure has been read, you may airgun until your index finger falls off. However, after the two minute squad walk through you cannot airgun as that would constitute an illegal "individual walkthrough". Of course no "sight pistures" are allowed as clearly defined by the rule book as requiring a gun in the hands.

I was proud of my compromise but here I learn that some would disagree strongly with this decision.

Let me explain my reasoning. I think it's not a rule until it appears in writing for all members to see and study in the written rule book. This is because I called IDPA HQ in the early planning stages of presenting the state match to find out at what age one becomes a Senior. I was told age 55.

Now the rule book states that I must award top Senior, LE and Lady so this was important. In the following months I had to order the award plaques. 55 just did not sound correct. I called IDPA HQ again and was told age 50 constituted a Senior. I told Sandra that this contradicted what she told me three months earlier and I would like a written ruling. She said she was reading off the National Championship registration form. Good enough. I checked the form and sure enough, there it was. This age was not in the rule book anywehere. So this proves that verbal rulings contradict themselves and I now pay no creedence to them.

Further onto the Ken's corner column in Tactical Journal. Last month Ken said it is against the rules to airgun although airgunning is not mentioned in the rule book. However, last year in his column he stated that athletic cleats are allowed because there are not mentioned as being illegal in the rule book. So last year rules had to be in the rule book but this year they do not? I am confused. I also consider that Ken has resigned from the IDPA Board of Directors and his current opinions are just that, unofficial personal statements, carrying no more weight than my personal opinions.

R Mills, please demonstrate the error of my ways and if you convince me I am an IPSC gamer for my opinions I will burn my SO and SOI cards, never to venture onto the IDPA range again and pollute the pure sport of IDPA.

What IDPA shooters are pleading for here is a new rule book that puts unwritten rules into writing. We are not pleading for a rule book that allows IPSC gamers to win the match against the strictly tactical types. No other sport tolerates such ambiguity as IDPA. Can you imagine trying to officiate the Super Bowl with the mismash of written, online, verbal and telephone rules that IDPA uses now? It would not work and it is not working very well in IDPA right now.

[tightloop]

Mark,

the rules tell you what you can and cannot do...if it does not specify...I believe you can and you believe you can't....that is the difference...I don;t believe in cheating, but I DO believe in having a very through knowledge of the rules and am not adverse to using any and all omissions to my advantage, just like any person who wants to win would do...the conflict comes in when the officials take a sour grapes attitude that they have been outwitted again and make it punitive to use your discovered advantage....

you would certainly use any advantage in a real situation..so I adhere to what IDPA represents itself to be, Practical...I use any advantage I can..if not in the rules.

Hope you understand my position...