Please define "air gunning"

[Jake Di Vita]

Mark,

Actually I called, mailed, and e-mailed the AC....All I got were promises he would eventually come out to a match. After a year and a half I quit caring.

[BigDave]

Mark (any others feel free)

I'm in your squad and you're the SO at an IDPA match. You see me air-gunning. Do you charge me a penalty and if so, what rule(specifically) do you site?

Dave

[tightloop]

Big D

I am rolling on the floor...

They don't have to cite a specific rule...that is the point...

[Mark Perez]

Mark (any others feel free)

I'm in your squad and you're the SO at an IDPA match.  You see me air-gunning.  Do you charge me a penalty and if so, what rule(specifically) do you site?

Dave

I've already posted the rules that would be cited.

If the MD allows airgunning - no PE .

If he doesn't allow it - there is the potential to incur a PE.

For instance -let's use the example given by banjobart ( which was a great compromise IMO),

"There is no rule against airgunning in the rule book. I cannot assume that everyone here today has called IDPA HQ and been told verbally that airgunning is not allowed. So this is what we will do. During the squad two minute walk through after the stage procedure has been read, you may airgun until your index finger falls off. However, after the two minute squad walk through you cannot airgun as that would constitute an illegal "individual walkthrough". Of course no "sight pistures" are allowed as clearly defined by the rule book as requiring a gun in the hands. "

If you are the shooter on deck - doing an airgun/walkthru/conga line rehearsal - you should definitely get a PE.

Jake ,

what else can I say or add that hasn't been said already?

I would have quit caring long before that

Tightloop ,

I see where you are coming from - but I'm sure you are aware of the "spirit of the game" that is IDPA . Like I said before - Nature of the Beast .

Different MD's have differing opinions on what that should be - but the major rules that we play by : using cover , reloads , etc ., are all fairly consistent across the board - aren't they ?

Mark

[BigDave]

I've already posted the rules that would be cited.

If the MD allows airgunning  - no PE .

If he doesn't allow it - there is the potential to incur a PE.

You have GOT to be kidding me, right? Please tell me that you're kidding.

If that is the case, I've got the re-write of the next rule book:

2005 IDPA Rules

1) Pay us your dues; and

2) don't shoot anyone; and

3) if your gun and/or holster isn't on the list, it isn't legal; and

4) we'll let you know when we think it is important. Depends on our mood.

Mark - if that is the way it is, fine. I'm just glad you pointed out, really. At least I know what, or what not to expect the next time I step to the line.

[smokshwn]

Different MD's have differing opinions on what that should be

Mark,

That is in a nutshell much of the problem. When you get an MD who does not know how to temper his knowledge/opinion and becomes somewhat tyrannical with "his rules".

There is no other game in the world that allows a person to make significant rules decisions on the basis of "in his opinion". No one is trying to turn IDPA into IPSC but at the same time I don't think it is too much to ask for:

1) An updated rulebook. If the Tactical Journal can be published on the highest quality magazine stock available, then IDPA definitely has the resources to produce an updated rulebook every two years.

2) Cohesive, objective and categorized rules in that rulebook.

3) Elimination of subjectivity based on "the doctrine". If you want a rule and a procedure to be followed then make it so. Don't rely on hundreds of MD's to develop their own interpretations. There are too many ideas/interpretations of said doctrine which I feel is a root of many of these discussions.

4) Enough already of trying to outdo/be different than IPSC. Stand up, be IDPA, evolve/solve problems and watch the sport flourish.

Look carefully at these four things and imagine them being solved. IMO it would not only significantly improve the sport but would at the same time eliminate 95% of the internet bellyaching we all participate in. Maybe then we would have a little more time to shoot, practice, and enjoy the sport.

Take care, Craig

[geezer-lock]

After all this thrashing around over several days we still don’t have a single definition of air-gunning. Mark has provided seven possibilities:

It’s a sight picture

It’s a warm-up

It’s an individual walk through

It’s a competitive advantage

It’s not in the spirit of the game

It’s doesn’t fit the purpose of the game

It’s gamey

AND

It’s OK if the MD at club X says so

AND

It’s OK if the MD at club Y says no

All of that is precisely the kind of “indefinite maybe’’ that we would like to see corrected with an updated rulebook. It is not a question of needing or wanting air-gunning. Or spikes, or knee pads. If it is worth this much argument, put down clearly as a part of the rule book.

geezer

[Mark Perez]

I still think it's gamey and doesn't have any place in IDPA.

But arguing the point with folks who make it a habit in their other pasttime is akin to beating my head against the wall .

I've had enough and will join RMills in obscurity .

Until that day,

Mark

[scandog]

The bottom line is there are clubs that are going to make up their own rules or apply rules that are not in the LGB and there will be clubs that adhere strictly to the rule book. From the posting on this topic, I think we can all see who sits where. It also looks like emotion is going to over rule logic.

If the rule book was clear on subjects like "Air-Gunning" and HQ doesn't care enough to put something in writing, do whatever you want. I have stepped down as MD as I can no longer try to defend a sport that doesn't seem to care about its members.

Mark, when you go to a match, to you shoot to win? Do you think through the stage and figure out where you are gong to do your reloads? Do you think about which direction you will turn when the buzzer sounds? If you answer yes to any of these, by your rules, you should get a procedureal or a FTDR. I guess it depends on what mood you are in.

For the rest of you, good luck. I don't think he is ever going to admit it is not in the rule book.

Daryl

[blackdragon]

I like it, The OL IDPA Rubber Chicken!

Ivan

[Mayonaise]

I see the problem really is that people are over thinking the game. Just step up and shoot it. To me airgunning is walking through the cof before shooting it. ie an individual walkthrough. I don't gig people for standing at the starting point and scoping the angles unless it is blatant. I'll warn them that there are no individual walkthroughs, per the rulebook.

MD's who ignore or create their own rules do their club shooters the greatest disservice. By doing so they set them up for procedurals or FTDR's at out of area sanctioned matches and or the nationals.

This isn't rocket science. The current ruleset isn't that complicated. I see people splitting atoms over every minutia of the rule book. And the ones that do aren't even at the top of their class.

Boy, I can't wait til a new rule book comes out. I expect to see all the familiar names whipped up to a lather over what they don't like about the revisions or lack of revisions.

Just shoot the damn stage and quit wasting time.

Mark

[blackdragon]

Right On! Mark

Ivan

[John Dunn]

EricW...Wilson's Tactical Elite you pictured isn't IDPA legal as it has a coned barrel rather than a bushing. Best go with the Supergrade!

As for airgunning/sight pictures, it seems to me that it offers an infinitesimal advantage if you do it. So by banning it and assessing a procedural you really aren't leveling the playing field, you are over penalizing the USPSA shooters who airgun subconsciously, sometimes while at work! (See Jake's post to back me up on this). The best reason I've seen offered to ban it is the fact that it "looks gamey" to some. Doesn't seem like much of a reason to me, and a three second penalty for a temporary lapse is kind of harsh.

There would be a lot less IDPA debating if the rules were a little more intuitively obvious, or clearly delineated in the LGB.

Sign me someone who would desperately like to have fun shooting IDPA, but doesn't.

[driver8M3]

i shoot idpa occasionally and while nobody goes crazy with procedurals at our club, we are often reminded that certain things will be penalized at larger matches. i've been reminded on many occasions that finger pointing isnt allowed. for an ipsc shooter, it really is hard not to do it if you shoot idpa infrequently. i dont mind a few silly/unclear rules b/c i'm just doing it for fun...at higher (more serious) levels, i would agree that ambiguity in the rules is not a good thing.

anyway, the main point i wanted to make is that i noticed something interesting in the latest tactical journal: "IDPA Headquarters is looking for a Sales/Marketing professional." duties include "development of marketing strategies and print material to attract new members..." thats at least a start in the right direction.

[Ron Ankeny]

John:

I started having fun in IDPA when I just resigned myself to do exactly as the little range Nazi dictates. I have no problem as long as I know the rules. If in doubt, I ask before I shoot the COF. In general, IDPA courses are short enough that an IPSC shooter can shoot the hole thing in his head without a bunch of air gunning. But I agree about the temporary lapse. I could see a guy on deck, with eyes closed, hands at sides, doing a dry draw and indexing to the targets through mental imagery, ooops you lose.

[EricW]

EricW...Wilson's Tactical Elite you pictured isn't IDPA legal as it has a coned barrel rather than a bushing. Best go with the Supergrade!

Oh Dear...what was I thinking?!

[Steve Moneypenny]

This is tooo funny. Bottom line, I shoot BOTH sports, i wish IDPA woudl tell me what the HELL it expected me to do, and not have every idiot safety officer make up stupid rules on demand (when a question is asked)

i have been told one thing then another, then given a procedural for doing either one. Matches where they make up some new rules on the spot, tell you stupid things that have NO basis in the rule book, OR reality. I was once told that i had to use the ENGINE block of teh car for cover... but was NOT allowed to dismantle the car so i could be SURE that the car still had an engine in it and was not allowed to remove a fender so the SO could be sure i was in fact behind the block.

IDPA needs EXACT rules, farm boy rules may work for all the good ol' boys but not professional grade shooters that want PROOF.

as for "air gunning" if you are not allowed to spend time walking through the stage this classifies as an individual walk through.

as for everyone out there that feels they need to hold their hands up and pray to the target gods to hit them. , it simply is not in the spirit of the sport you are wanting to play. Goal tending is against the idea of basketball, this is against the idea of IDPA. you know you are only allowed to fire 6 at the bianchi plate rack...

rmills.... too bad you don't like playing other sports any more, i find a LOT more IDPA guys being rude to USPSA shooters than the other way around. To annoy both crowds i have BOTH lables on my range bag.

One reason for rules being obscure in IDPA is that many arm chair commando's don't want to be defeated in their own game, they throw penalities, change the way they do things, etc just to show us young fast "Yip Sick" shooters something we knew already. that were in a GAME and not real life, because in real life there are no rules. Sadly some people want to be hero's "shooting the bad guy in the pretend scenario" when in real life they would cower behind anything they could find and pray for a police officer who is just as scared as they are.

[Flexmoney]

Well...I think the "air gunning" has been about beat to death.

CLOSED.