Carbon fibre barrels?

[troupe]

Carbon fiber gets warm too. See if Proof will send you a off of the shelf barrel, test it with factory PMC Bronze at 100 yards, compare it to mid priced barrels with the same ammo, same distance and report back. Don't hold your breath on getting your barrel. If the Proof is better, then you just have bought a new barrel and all will be happy.

[B45C22]

I just bought a Nordic 18" barrel for my 2nd build.

How do you guys rate the Nordic barrels? Just curious as I already have it.

I have three. First one shot out around 4-5k. The second 18" is great - sub MOA (just like the first one was until now). The 16" one never shot better than 3" at 100. I am replacing the shot out one with a black hole barrel this week, and reserving the 16" for a hog shooting gun. I have been pretty disappointed in what it took to trash the first one and with the 16"er completely.

[Montana3gunner]

Brian Nelson, 3 Gun Nation Pro posted this today on FB:

My 14.5" Proof research barrel probably has 3000+ rounds through it so far and still shoots under 1/2 MOA. I took it out to 630 yards last week with ease.

[troupe]

You go out on a limb to see if you get a good one or a bad one. Not enough consistency for the price . Been there, done that. And I did not get the PRO pricing.

[Montana3gunner]

All barrel companies will occasionally have barrels that won't shoot great. Even Bartleins. I have a JP AR barrel that's been back and forth to them and I can't get it under 1.25 MOA. I'm sure they will replace it at this point, I just need to take the time to send it in.

I can't speak for the other, or prior Carbon Fiber barrel companies, but Proof Research is not going to leave you hanging if your barrel wont shoot.

Greg Hamilton (Pro Staff Shooter and Employee) tests their barrels before they go to customers.

Troupe, did you have a problem with a Proot barrel and did you contact them about it? And seriously, I don't think most barrel companies are going to send most of us a free barrel to test..and if they do, you might want to use ammo that's a little higher quality than PMC to really test a barrels accuracy.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Montana3gunner

[troupe]

Greg Hamilton is a stand up guy and because of Greg, I had a problem taken care of and only because of Greg. Not trying to ruffle any feathers nor am I saying that Proof would leave you hanging, just saying that there is not enough of a benefit for the money. I used the PMC ammo because a lot of regular shooters can't afford the expensive ammo for matches. I do agree that top notch ammo should be used to get the best accuracy possible potential . I love the look of the Proof Barrels and only because of Greg, I would shoot a Proof Barrel if it was a $400 barrel.

[Chuck Anderson]

I can't imagine testing a premium barrel of any manufacturer with crap ammo. If you can't afford match ammo to shoot on the long range targets at a match don't buy a $950 barrel. If all you're feeding it is PMC, by all means, buy the used DTI barrel. It'll work fine for you. That's like buying a Corvette and filling it up with last years gas from the lawnmower and complaining it won't break 140mph.

[troupe]

Really Chuck, that is the best you can do. I think you have missed my point. As I stated earlier, I was not trying to ruffle any Proof Barrel shooters feathers and as to what I can afford. Come on Chuck. Enjoy your Proof Barrels. For a matter of fact, I have a DTI barrel that shoots as good as the Proof Barrels that I had with both the PMC and my more expensive match ammo. Buy the way, I was able to swing the extra few dollars to buy a new DTI barrel and did not have to buy a used one. One other fact for you Chuck, my 2005 Corvette done 154 mph on lawnmower gas. That was offensive and this site is not about that at all. So if I missed your point, I am publicly apologizing to you here.

Tommy

[Chuck Anderson]

I think you did miss the point. If you're in the market for a $950 barrel you should either have the money to buy ammo that is appropriate to feed it, or save your bucks and buy a mid priced barrel. Testing a barrel with sub par ammo proves absolutely nothing except how that barrel performs with that specific ammo. I doubt you would get any manufacturer to send you a barrel if you told them your test protocol consisted of shooting plinker grade FMJ out of it, then comparing it to other barrels. What possible reason could they have to do so?

I've seen some cheap barrels that shoot FMJ every bit as well as match grade. Usually they are both mediocre, 1-3 MOA. That's about as good as you're going to get consistently with 55 gr FMJ. Occasionally you might get a better group. I shot one 1" group at 200 with a Nordic barrel and Federal 55 FMJ. I don't consider that a 1/2 MOA combination though and anyone that does is a liar. The idea of taking a premium part and putting a bargain basement item in conjunction with it and expecting peak performance is faulty. Would it be easier to say, get the Proof and mount a $25.00 Barska scope on it and see how well it does? I'm not a Proof barrel shooter. Was thinking about buying one that's all. Still am. Actually probably more likely to do so. I do have several friends and one team mate who use them. All of them can put whatever barrel they want on their guns. Most of them are a lot better than me and could probably get whatever barrel they want for free. And they still chose Proof. I think I'll take my advice from them.

[Montana3gunner]

Travis and Wyatt Gibson just switched to Proof Research Carbon Fiber barrels last week and in their 1st matches with those barrels took 1st and 2nd overall at the Hard as Hell Match last weekend in Utah.

Some people may not be able to afford the top gear - whatever that is. The cool thing about 3 Gun is that you can run whatever you want, and nobody is going to care.

However, it's clear that there is a shift happening amongst the top shooters toward Proof Research - Daniel Horner, Brian Nelson, The Gibsons, Nick Atkinson. Chuck is right, those guys could shoot any barrel they want but they are choosing Proof Barrels for a reason.

BTW, Proof also offers steel barrels now - which also shoot great. They are priced similar to other high-quality steel barrels and shoot similar.

Travis posted this today:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204902451941699&set=a.1822995655289.2107276.1252163127&type=1

[P.E. Kelley]

Over the years of competing in various shooting sports, I have found that in the very least removing overall weight and then putting some of that

weight back on where you WANT IT can really change the human/machine performance interface.

I have done it with Sporting Clay's Unlimited Metallic Silhouette, NRA Bullseye, Air Pistol and to a lesser degree 3 gun.

Now IF you have the scratch you can keep the accuracy and lose the weight and put it back where you might want it in 3gun!

Bravo to new ideas!

[TonytheTiger]

My few years of kart racing tends to agree with PK's thoughts of not necessarily dropping weight to a minimum (my class had a min/max weight rule anyways) but being able to arrange a given weight to give a performance advantage from a physics standpoint. The guys with the best handling karts had often added a few pounds above the minimum to specific places on the frame and where better off for it.

[Uber]

Greg Hamilton is a stand up guy and because of Greg, I had a problem taken care of and only because of Greg. Not trying to ruffle any feathers nor am I saying that Proof would leave you hanging, just saying that there is not enough of a benefit for the money. I used the PMC ammo because a lot of regular shooters can't afford the expensive ammo for matches. I do agree that top notch ammo should be used to get the best accuracy possible potential . I love the look of the Proof Barrels and only because of Greg, I would shoot a Proof Barrel if it was a $400 barrel.

Remember when you say benefit for the money, that we are talking about fractions of a second between winning and losing. If I can run a 18" gun that transitions like a 12" gun, I am going to do it. The hardest thing I did last year was spend $1200 on a case of ammo, just for shooting long range stages, but it took me to the winner's circle and made a huge difference through out the year. The same could be said for barrels. Light weight barrel that shoots like a bull barrel...im in...if you say it is only a pound lighter, that is over 13% lighter in my set up. It makes a difference.

[Uber]

I have a DTI barrel that shoots as good as the Proof Barrels that I had with both the PMC and my more expensive match ammo.

Also remember that all barrels, even from the same manufacturer, are going to like different ammo. I had to try 5 different brands, all the same grain bullet, before I found the one my last barrel liked.

[P.E. Kelley]

Greg Hamilton is a stand up guy and because of Greg, I had a problem taken care of and only because of Greg. Not trying to ruffle any feathers nor am I saying that Proof would leave you hanging, just saying that there is not enough of a benefit for the money. I used the PMC ammo because a lot of regular shooters can't afford the expensive ammo for matches. I do agree that top notch ammo should be used to get the best accuracy possible potential . I love the look of the Proof Barrels and only because of Greg, I would shoot a Proof Barrel if it was a $400 barrel.

Remember when you say benefit for the money, that we are talking about fractions of a second between winning and losing. If I can run a 18" gun that transitions like a 12" gun, I am going to do it. The hardest thing I did last year was spend $1200 on a case of ammo, just for shooting long range stages, but it took me to the winner's circle and made a huge difference through out the year. The same could be said for barrels. Light weight barrel that shoots like a bull barrel...im in...if you say it is only a pound lighter, that is over 13% lighter in my set up. It makes a difference.

I will say from having watched and talked about you on TV you are well on your way to the top of the

charts!

[Montana3gunner]

For those that are wondering how Proof Research's Carbon Fiber barrels shoot when hot, here is a Facebook post from Proof Shooting Team Member Nick Atkinson regarding a test he ran this week on his new 18" AR barrel:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=653487678095387&set=a.137729326337894.25183.100003024834195&type=1

"They say the proof is in the pudding. Well, in this case, the Proof is on the paper! 5 shot group at 100 yards with my Proof Research barreled Aero Precision match rifle. I also wanted to add that this is after shooting 30 rounds under 30 seconds, to simulate barrel heating in a match. Most rifles will see a slight increase in group size after heating up."

[Uber]

For those that are wondering how Proof Research's Carbon Fiber barrels shoot when hot, here is a Facebook post from Proof Shooting Team Member Nick Atkinson regarding a test he ran this week on his new 18" AR barrel:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=653487678095387&set=a.137729326337894.25183.100003024834195&type=1

"They say the proof is in the pudding. Well, in this case, the Proof is on the paper! 5 shot group at 100 yards with my Proof Research barreled Aero Precision match rifle. I also wanted to add that this is after shooting 30 rounds under 30 seconds, to simulate barrel heating in a match. Most rifles will see a slight increase in group size after heating up."

You beat me to posting it! The thing that caught my attention the most on this thread was concern about barrel heating and sustained accuracy. After I got my Proof barrel installed (brake in was already done), I headed out to the range to get some dope on the new rig.

I shot about 20 shots to get the gas tuned just right, and another 5 to get it dialed in with the 1-6 Z6i. After making all of the adjustments, I loaded up a mag with 55gr american eagle and shot 30 rounds at 5 targets at 200 yards, as fast as I could accurately hit them, then changed mags to my 69gr match ammo and shot this 5 shot group.

I would be happy with that group from any gun, but considering this one has a barrel that I weighed to be 8oz lighter than my previous 18" match barrel and the barrel was heated up to match conditions, I am thrilled! Also, i was shooting outdoors off a single sand bag, the weather was about 50 degrees, light drizzle and the wind was 5-10 full value left to right. If the weather was better, I would have done a few more tests, but I was tired of being wet.

On the next outting, I plan on a 60 round mag dump with a full auto lower, then shoot another group. Stay tuned!

Edited January 22, 2015 by Uber

[Nickoli]

Thats the news I wanted to hear!! I am waiting for Motor City Gun Works to get back from SHOT with my barrel. They have an 18" on one of their demo guns that is going on my gun from them when they get back next week. I was going to run testing like this on mine when I found a load the barrel liked and test the group sizes at 200 and 300 cold and hot.

[reptoid]

For those that are wondering how Proof Research's Carbon Fiber barrels shoot when hot, here is a Facebook post from Proof Shooting Team Member Nick Atkinson regarding a test he ran this week on his new 18" AR barrel:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=653487678095387&set=a.137729326337894.25183.100003024834195&type=1

"They say the proof is in the pudding. Well, in this case, the Proof is on the paper! 5 shot group at 100 yards with my Proof Research barreled Aero Precision match rifle. I also wanted to add that this is after shooting 30 rounds under 30 seconds, to simulate barrel heating in a match. Most rifles will see a slight increase in group size after heating up."

You beat me to posting it! The thing that caught my attention the most on this thread was concern about barrel heating and sustained accuracy. After I got my Proof barrel installed (brake in was already done), I headed out to the range to get some dope on the new rig.

I shot about 20 shots to get the gas tuned just right, and another 5 to get it dialed in with the 1-6 Z6i. After making all of the adjustments, I loaded up a mag with 55gr american eagle and shot 30 rounds at 5 targets at 200 yards, as fast as I could accurately hit them, then changed mags to my 69gr match ammo and shot this 5 shot group.

I would be happy with that group from any gun, but considering this one has a barrel that I weighed to be 8oz lighter than my previous 18" match barrel and the barrel was heated up to match conditions, I am thrilled! Also, i was shooting outdoors off a single sand bag, the weather was about 50 degrees, light drizzle and the wind was 5-10 full value left to right. If the weather was better, I would have done a few more tests, but I was tired of being wet.

That's one hell of a group considering wind drift of a 69 gr SMK at 2800 FPS MV with a 5-10 MPH crosswind is .6"-1.2" @ 100 yds.

Edited January 23, 2015 by reptoid

[Uber]

For those that are wondering how Proof Research's Carbon Fiber barrels shoot when hot, here is a Facebook post from Proof Shooting Team Member Nick Atkinson regarding a test he ran this week on his new 18" AR barrel:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=653487678095387&set=a.137729326337894.25183.100003024834195&type=1

"They say the proof is in the pudding. Well, in this case, the Proof is on the paper! 5 shot group at 100 yards with my Proof Research barreled Aero Precision match rifle. I also wanted to add that this is after shooting 30 rounds under 30 seconds, to simulate barrel heating in a match. Most rifles will see a slight increase in group size after heating up."

You beat me to posting it! The thing that caught my attention the most on this thread was concern about barrel heating and sustained accuracy. After I got my Proof barrel installed (brake in was already done), I headed out to the range to get some dope on the new rig.

I shot about 20 shots to get the gas tuned just right, and another 5 to get it dialed in with the 1-6 Z6i. After making all of the adjustments, I loaded up a mag with 55gr american eagle and shot 30 rounds at 5 targets at 200 yards, as fast as I could accurately hit them, then changed mags to my 69gr match ammo and shot this 5 shot group.

I would be happy with that group from any gun, but considering this one has a barrel that I weighed to be 8oz lighter than my previous 18" match barrel and the barrel was heated up to match conditions, I am thrilled! Also, i was shooting outdoors off a single sand bag, the weather was about 50 degrees, light drizzle and the wind was 5-10 full value left to right. If the weather was better, I would have done a few more tests, but I was tired of being wet.

That's one hell of a group considering wind drift of a 69 gr SMK at 2800 FPS MV with a 5-10 MPH crosswind is .6"-1.2" @ 100 yds.

Well, that would explain the slight left to right shape of the group then. Berms probably helped knock the wind down a little too. Edited January 23, 2015 by Uber

[MarkCO]

Nice group. However, thermal drift is more about receiver to barrel extension fit and a good installation procedure of the barrel. I'd be much more interested to see the groups after the barrel has 5k, 10k, 15k rounds on it.

[Uber]

I will make sure and report back on that mark

[reptoid]

So.....since this thread has seemingly established the following:

A. These barrels shoot as accurately as a quality steel barrel

B. These barrels are as thermally stable as a good quality steel barrel

C. The 18" Carbon wrapped barrel is about 8 ozs. lighter than a stainless match 18" barrel (we don't know the profile or actual weight of either)

Therefore: the purpose of spending the extra $$$ is strictly a reduction in weight for the same length barrel.(O.K. there is the undeniable cool factor )

So to me, the key question would be: how much time did this barrel save you in close range transitions and/or splits when directly compared to the same rifle with the steel barrel?

[Uber]

So.....since this thread has seemingly established the following:

A. These barrels shoot as accurately as a quality steel barrel

B. These barrels are as thermally stable as a good quality steel barrel

C. The 18" Carbon wrapped barrel is about 8 ozs. lighter than a stainless match 18" barrel (we don't know the profile or actual weight of either)

Therefore: the purpose of spending the extra $$$ is strictly a reduction in weight for the same length barrel.(O.K. there is the undeniable cool factor )

So to me, the key question would be: how much time did this barrel save you in close range transitions and/or splits when directly compared to the same rifle with the steel barrel?

My previous barrel was a 18" H Bar profile Criterion. I dont know the exact weight of either barrel, because I weighed the uppers complete (all the same components and same uppers, except the barrels). I didnt have access to the Proof barrel prior to install, so I couldnt weigh it alone. My Proof is also H Bar size.

I havent got around to testing the transitions of the gun with the new barrel, but last year on the pro series, I shot a short barrel rifle to cut weight, and it felt much fast on short stages.

In addition to transitions, I feel like I can move faster in general with lighter equipment.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Uber

[Montana3gunner]

For those that are wondering how Proof Research's Carbon Fiber barrels shoot when hot, here is a Facebook post from Proof Shooting Team Member Nick Atkinson regarding a test he ran this week on his new 18" AR barrel:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=653487678095387&set=a.137729326337894.25183.100003024834195&type=1

"They say the proof is in the pudding. Well, in this case, the Proof is on the paper! 5 shot group at 100 yards with my Proof Research barreled Aero Precision match rifle. I also wanted to add that this is after shooting 30 rounds under 30 seconds, to simulate barrel heating in a match. Most rifles will see a slight increase in group size after heating up."

You beat me to posting it! The thing that caught my attention the most on this thread was concern about barrel heating and sustained accuracy. After I got my Proof barrel installed (brake in was already done), I headed out to the range to get some dope on the new rig.

I shot about 20 shots to get the gas tuned just right, and another 5 to get it dialed in with the 1-6 Z6i. After making all of the adjustments, I loaded up a mag with 55gr american eagle and shot 30 rounds at 5 targets at 200 yards, as fast as I could accurately hit them, then changed mags to my 69gr match ammo and shot this 5 shot group.

I would be happy with that group from any gun, but considering this one has a barrel that I weighed to be 8oz lighter than my previous 18" match barrel and the barrel was heated up to match conditions, I am thrilled! Also, i was shooting outdoors off a single sand bag, the weather was about 50 degrees, light drizzle and the wind was 5-10 full value left to right. If the weather was better, I would have done a few more tests, but I was tired of being wet.

That's one hell of a group considering wind drift of a 69 gr SMK at 2800 FPS MV with a 5-10 MPH crosswind is .6"-1.2" @ 100 yds.

Unless I'm doing something wrong, I get .54 inches of drift in a full value 10 mph crosswind, 69 SMK @ 2800 - using the Applied Ballistics ap.

MarkCO - The reason Nick tested this is that we've all seen posts from people who are reporting that carbon barrels are experiencing significant POI shifts in 5-20 rounds. That's not been my experience with ANY of my Proof barrels, and I think Nick was just trying to create a test that would simulate what he might see as a competitive 3 gun shooter.

I've not heard of Proof's barrels shooting significantly different as they get into the higher round counts, other than changes due to throat erosion and rifling erosion. I've burned out a couple barrels, they were still shooting between .65-1.0 MOA with about 7" of rifling gone and serious heat checking. The last was a 6.5-284 barrel. I've been with Greg Hamilton when his .243 barrel started to go, it basically acted like every other barrel that is burning out. There were no issues with the Carbon Fiber. My current AR barrel has an untold number of rounds on it, but is easily between 5k-10k. No issues there. It shoots great, hot or cold. Brian Nelson has already put over 3k on his AR barrel, in about 3 months (Where does he get his ammo from?!) and is reporting great groups from it (see my earlier post). My guess is that you'll burn the inside of the barrel out before you ever have a problem with the carbon fiber. However, that is a good question and I'll ask Greg Hamilton and report back.

Reptoid - There are more weight gains on heavier barrel profiles. ie, the least amount of weight gain would be on a lightweight barrel (such as Nick's). For those that have applications where they might want a heavier profile, there are larger gains that are possible. I don't know how much time the carbon fiber barrels are saving us, but as Chuck Anderson said earlier in this thread, if there is any gain it's worth it. We spend an extra $150 on a better BCG, $50 on a better brake, $100 on a better stock. Why not spend more on a better barrel? Also, that's half a pound on the end of the gun. That feels like a lot more than 8 oz. Is it worth it for everyone? Maybe not, but to some it definitely is. There is a tremendous amount of interest from the upper levels in 3 gun...for a reason.

Guys like Daniel Horner, Travis Gibson, Brian Nelson, and Nick Atkinson could shoot any barrel they want. There is a reason they chose Proof.

Thank you for your questions, and I hope I've helped somewhat. Looking forward to meeting some of you at this year's matches. If you see me, Nick, or any of the other Proof Shooting Team members - come say hello!

Edited January 24, 2015 by Montana3gunner