correct shooting low left

[shel6977]

I have been lurking here for awhile but never posted. I'm having a terrible time shooting low left with my new M&P Pro 5" in 9mm. I've read quite a few threads in the S&W section about the accuracy issues some are having with this gun but I think my issues are like many others talking about the gun, it's the shooter not the gun. I'm shooting about 4-5" low left very consistently. According to the wheel of misfortune, I'm most likely jerking or tightening fingers. How do I help cure this? I try to shoot snap caps and balancing a dime on my front sight to change it up a little bit and I'm not seeing a flinch or drop when I do this so I'm sort of baffled. One thing I need to do is have someone else shoot the gun and see where they are shooting with it as well as mix some snap caps in the magazine and see what I do then. Anyone else have any tips to improve my pistol shooting?

[scottlep]

Low left is usually a trigger jerk.

<<Link to Handgun Target Analysis Guide

Edited October 17, 2013 by scottlep

[shel6977]

I will keep up the dry firing but does anyone have any other tips?

[Kagemusha]

Even on the first shot? Usually it's the follow ups that get thrown off. But it sounds like you're doing the appropriate actions to correct it. Also, try double plugging to reduce flinch if you haven't.

[jlamphere]

When you shoot the snap caps and use the dime, how fast are you pulling the trigger? I found that when I pulled the trigger fast, I could see the front site dip left. When I did a slow press, it was rock steady. Speed up the trigger pull and see what happens for you.

[kneelingatlas]

Where do your shots go when you stand relaxed on a quite range and perform a slow, smooth trigger pull?

[CHA-LEE]

If you mash the trigger with excessive force it will deviate the sights before the shot breaks, usually low left for right handed shooters. The solution is to only pull the trigger with a little more effort than what is needed to break the shot. For example, if you have a 4lb trigger then 4.5lbs of trigger pull force will probably yield a decent shot. If you mash a 4lb trigger with 10+ lbs of force then it will result in a low left hit.

Many new shooters simply row their trigger finger back in an excessive "Mashing" way to simply get the shot over with. Practice slowly pulling the trigger until the shot breaks as a surprise to you. This will almost always produce the most accurate shot because you will also eliminate the shot anticipating flinch as well.

In dry fire another way to train yourself to only pull the trigger with the bare minimum force to break the shot is to aggressively draw or point the gun at a target then pull the trigger as much or far as you can but NOT break the shot. The goal is to pull the trigger to an almost breaking point but not allow the hammer to fall. Be prepared to fail at this a lot when you first start doing the drill. But the whole point of the drill is to train yourself on applying just enough trigger pull pressure to break the shot and no more. It also trains you in being able to properly prep the trigger before breaking a tuff shot that requires a flawless trigger pull.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Where do your shots go when you stand relaxed on a quiet range and perform a slow, smooth trigger pull?

Or, even better, from a bench with support?

[shel6977]

I shoot at home as I live out in the country so unless there are farmers in the field, it's almost always quiet. Shooting supported as well as off hand I have about the same results, 4-6" low left as a right handed right eye dominant shooter.

When I shoot my 1911's, I am about 1 1/2" low left which I know is me but I think the cleaner trigger helps my bad habit/form but I get nice groups. With the M&P, I'm not really seeing good groups as I'm kind all over but everything is low left consistently. I've only shot about 150 rounds in the M&P so a completely different trigger is not helping me but it's clearly me not the gun. I'm sure more rounds will help but it's a real pain if it will take me 10k rounds just to get myself used to the trigger, then sticking with a 1911 would be better.

I added the M&P to the group because next spring I plan on finally getting into some real shooting matches and thought I would be somewhat handicapped by 8rd mags in a 1911 .45 especially in 3gun.

[kneelingatlas]

Why would you say it's you? Just adjust the sights and you'll consistently be on target.

There would be no just thing as adjustable sights if every gun shot in the same place for every shooter.

[CHA-LEE]

A light trigger is only a cruch for your issue. It's not a solution to the issue of mashing the trigger.

[shel6977]

I can move the sights on the 1911s but I have a hard time believing every pistol I pick up shoots low left and it not being my fault. The 1911s I'm OK with because it being a 1 1/2" off I can live with but clearly something I'm doing is off which needs to be corrected before taking the next step so to speak. I just think the triggers on the 1911s are hiding some issues and on the M&P those issues are magnified because of the trigger isn't as forgiving. I've thought about doing a little trigger work on the M&P but if my fundamentals are off I'm just masking human error still.

[prk]

I shot an M&P Pro 5" 9mm in SSP / IDPA and Production / USPSA --- I found from the factory they shot low using 115gr , a little better but still low with 125gr and right on @ 10-15yds with 147gr. I know from the factory u don't have an elevation adj -- first make sure your sights are exactly centered - mine were not from the factory. You are probably jerking the trigger, too much finger in the trigger and/or pushing the frame - maybe a combination of the three. How much of your finger is on the trigger , most competitive shooters will tell you - use just the pad of your finger not past the first joint. Also, you might try the med or large palm swell , helps you put less finger in the trigger. Another exercise is to put your palm on a table or flat surface and practice pulling your trigger finger straight back without moving the rest of your hand - do it whenever you can - good muscle memory exercise.

[prk]

Also - from what I was told from S&W - the M&P Pro 9's are sighted in using 125gr at the factory - that still shot 2-3" low for me at 10-15yds. I also hated that big huge glob of a mess front fiber optic - I replaced it with something much smaller

[kneelingatlas]

Can you post a picture of a target? How big are your groups at ten yards?

[shel6977]

I shot an M&P Pro 5" 9mm in SSP / IDPA and Production / USPSA --- I found from the factory they shot low using 115gr , a little better but still low with 125gr and right on @ 10-15yds with 147gr. I know from the factory u don't have an elevation adj -- first make sure your sights are exactly centered - mine were not from the factory. You are probably jerking the trigger, too much finger in the trigger and/or pushing the frame - maybe a combination of the three. How much of your finger is on the trigger , most competitive shooters will tell you - use just the pad of your finger not past the first joint. Also, you might try the med or large palm swell , helps you put less finger in the trigger. Another exercise is to put your palm on a table or flat surface and practice pulling your trigger finger straight back without moving the rest of your hand - do it whenever you can - good muscle memory exercise.

My rear sights are perfectly centered. My front sight is off by about 1mm to the right which would help a little with the shooting left but I can't get it to move with a punch and I don't have a sight tool. Although it would help, I don't think 1mm is my only issue. I plan on putting a smaller FO front or the brass bead style front sight on but would like to get a little more consistent in case I need a shorter front sight.

I've shot 124gr and it's around 4-6" low left at 15 yards. The 147gr is better at about 3-4" low left at 15 yards.

I try to keep the pad of my finger on the center of the trigger but I've also tried in between the first joint and the pad as well as all 3 back straps. I think I've done better with the large backstrap because it takes some finger out of the equation but the last time I shot I used the small just to see what difference it would make. I'll try to shoot in the morning again with the large.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Can you post a picture of a target? How big are your groups at ten yards?

You seem to feel that your problem is your trigger control,

but,

The problem can be one (or two or all three) of three different problems:

1. gun/ammo is not very accurate - tough for us to tell, since we don't know how large your groups are - photos of a 15 round group at 20 yards would be Very Helpful for us to help you. As mentioned, you should try different brands of ammo and different weights of bullets. Having someone else shoot a 15 shot group is a Great Idea:)

2. sights are NOT set in properly, for you - if you fire a 20 shot group from a solid rest, very slowly, that's where Your Gun & Ammo shoot for YOU - if that's low left, it might be difficult to move your sights, but moving the sights is The Solution to YOUR problem.

BTW, are you aiming at the top of the front sight, or at the center of the dot in your front sight? You might try both and see if that solves much of your problem.

3. your trigger control is poor - if the sights are set properly (above), and you're shooting 6" low/left at 15 yards, then you need to examine your grip and trigger pull - try DotTorture .

Start out a 5-7 yards, and shoot slowly at first.

I wouldn't assume which of these is the problem - I'd work my way down the list, systemically.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Hi-Power Jack

[CHA-LEE]

The easiest test to confirm or deny the mechanical accuracy of a gun is to have another skilled person shoot it and see if it produces the same low left point of impact.

I have lost count of how many times I have shot other peoples guns to prove that it is or isn't sighted in properly. When I am in doubt of my own gun or ammo I hand it off to someone else to see if the issue replicates when they shoot it.

[kneelingatlas]

I don't know how much having someone else shoot it helps. I started shooting compeditively at 11 so I'd like to say my fundamentals are pretty strong; I have a friend who is also capable of cloverleaf groups at 10-15 yards and when he and I switch guns I shoot a ragged hole 3" low and 3" left while he shoots the same pattern 3" high and three inches right.

Along time ago I became covinced that different eyes see the same objects in different ways, the fact that adjustable sights exist seems to support that theory.

Edited October 19, 2013 by kneelingatlas

[trgt]

For a long time, my only two pistols were a SW Model 41 .22 and a SA 1911 TRP .45 - I thought I was a natural bullseye shooter because it wasn't that hard to punch the target centers out every time with these two otherwise very different guns. But both are heavy and have great triggers, so that may have masked poor fundamentals on my part.

Then when I started USPSA I got a Glock 17/34 - and ALL my shots grouped low left about 4", pretty much for all the reasons folks have listed, made worse by newness of practical pistol competition where you are on the clock with adrenaline going.

After going through the denial phase where I though it was the Glock, here's what helped me get on center:

1) Trigger kit - glocktriggers.com Vogel kit to get trigger to be much lighter pull (but still not as nice as either my two original guns)

2) Lots of dryfire with a SIRT pistol, it has self-resetting glock-like trigger to work on smooth press of trigger.

3) Captains of crush grip trainer for stronger weak hand grip / control.

4) A conscious effort to preload my right/strong side forearm with some extra tension when doing trigger press, to point where any extra tension will pull sight right.

5) Drifted rear sight slightly right to get rid of a small amount (1-2") of left bias o that all the above did not fix

Probably more from everything gleaned off forums on shooting a glock. But result is slow shooting, I'm spot on center now. Still working on how fast I can do that from draw and moving around. Going back to my original guns that newfound control/technique tightened up my grouping on center dramatically. Hope something here helpful - don't give up, it will come!

[prk]

When I first started shooting competitively , same thing - low left. For me it was probably a combination of adrenalin rush ( all the fundamentals going out the window at the buzzer ) , striker fired trigger , grip technique --- I was so VERY TEMPTED to move my sights but I did not. Thousands of rounds later , my shots now go where I aim - but I did ditch my M&P Pro for some Tanfoglio's. Also IMO - the accuracy of the M&P Pro's sucked and mine had one of the sweetest trigger jobs from the Performance center

[kneelingatlas]

I don't get this attitude that it HAS to be the shooter? If you can shoot tight groups consistently at various speeds, why not adjust the sights to put those groups in the center? It's not like you can't change it back if you were wrong.

I prefer iron sights to adjustable, but I'm insistent on shots going where I want them so I drift/file to make it so and don't ever worry about that pistol again.

[shel6977]

Well I finally got to go out and shoot again over the weekend. I shot 124 gr and 147 gr in the different manufactures. There was very little variation on in groupings and where I am missing between the three kinds of ammo although the 147gr was noticeably higher shooting, where the 124gr. was about a 1 inch lower. I shot four 3 shot strings from 7 yards supported and then did the same off hand with each kind of ammunition. At 7 yards, I'm about 1 1/2" low and about 1 inch left on my groups. My average group size shooting supported was about 1 1/2". There were a few shoots in there that I knew as soon as I let it go, it was a flyer that opened my groups up, more so standing than supported but there were a couple in there supported as well.

After doing all this over the weekend. I'm convinced it is all in the trigger pull because the majority of my first shots were very close to POA and the next ones is where they opened up. I will continue working on dry firing to try and see if I can bring the groups in tighter. The main reason I know it's in my trigger pull is that I shot several groups under 1 inch and then followed it up with another shot that was pushed about 4" straight left in the 9 o'clock position. Thanks for all the responses and if anyone has anymore input on the subject, I would love to here about it.

[kylehb]

Your trigger pull could be contributing to the issue alone but it sounds like anticipation as well (don't assume that it must be one or the other, often more than one variable can be the cause of your problem). Very often the low left problem is a result of anticipating the recoil. A good way to determine if that is the case is to get a dummy round and place it somewhere in the middle of one of your magazines and then shuffle, or even better, have someone else load it randomly into one. When you eventually hit the dummy round it will be very obvious if there is any anticipation of the recoil because you will feel yourself jerking the gun forward and down. If you don't have a dummy round you can also remove the slide lock but it will be a little harder to fool yourself this way.

[Hi-Power Jack]

How have you made out since last October? Still shooting low/left?