How fast?

[Onepocket]

Economy of motion is why I copied your loading technique Mr. Miller. If perfected it has to be the fastest, because the gun stays on target.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Economy of motion is why I copied your loading technique Mr. Miller. If perfected it has to be the fastest, because the gun stays on target.

If you need to load one or maybe two shells or load one shell then shoot then load one then shoot its the fastest. If you are moving dropping dueces or tossing quads wins because it doesn't matter if the gun is up or down or inside out. You aren't shooting.

Ran an 8 stage 110 round shotgun match at my range yesterday. I used my AP Customs L2/4, TACCOM Quads and my AP Custom Classic 4 as well as loading one shell or two off my custom made kydex shell holder.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Have to agree with Jesse.

Of course, the fastest method in a match is the one you do consistently without fumbling shells.

My squad at the Pro-Am shot each stage right after squad one. Squad one consisted of Miculek, Upchurch, BJ Norris, a few other speedsters, and all members of the Noveske Shooting Team. In watching them, I quickly picked up that Rob Romero was dropping deuces from what looked like a Carbon Arms setup. Just being honest, but it didn't quite look like he had it 100% "down" compared to the weak hand load I watched him use at other matches. I doubt someone competing for a top spot is going to use a slower method to join the cool club!

[Jesse Tischauser]

Have to agree with Jesse.

Of course, the fastest method in a match is the one you do consistently without fumbling shells.

My squad at the Pro-Am shot each stage right after squad one. Squad one consisted of Miculek, Upchurch, BJ Norris, a few other speedsters, and all members of the Noveske Shooting Team. In watching them, I quickly picked up that Rob Romero was dropping deuces from what looked like a Carbon Arms setup. Just being honest, but it didn't quite look like he had it 100% "down" compared to the weak hand load I watched him use at other matches. I doubt someone competing for a top spot is going to use a slower method to join the cool club!

Romero just switched to dueces. Here is a big shocker... Keith Garcia is going to be tossing quads soon too. Keith is by far the fastest weak hand guy I've seen too.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

While blazing fast on stages, you could tell that Romero had recently switched. His eyes were focused on the magwell and his movements were segmented, deliberate, and calculated. Last time I watched him shoot a stage before I got to shoot that stage, his eyes were on the targets and it was one fluid movement.

If Horner starts quadloading, I hope all you big name guys can handle 68-78% stage points like me! haha

[bigbrowndog]

I was pondering this whole whats faster debate the other day, and it occured to me that in reality since a single miss with the shotgun is what really hurts a shooters load program on a stage, and since we all miss, occassionally. isn't the time it takes to realize you missed, and load one shell the important factor in getting your gun back to your load program??? Jesse stated in another thread that as soon as he realizes he missed, he loads one shell back in the gun so that his load program will stay the same, this makes great sense!!! and eliminates the guesswork of how many did I just shoot and what was I supposed to have left in the gun at the end.

The question is what position are you in when you realize it? prone, kneeling, scrunched over in a low port, running 20yds to your next shooting position, etc......so its how fast you can get ONE shell in the gun from your loading method thats really important, because while you may be able to get 8 in 4seconds, I'll bet you can't get anywhere near 1 in a half second!!!!! probably 1 in 1 second would be a much more attainable goal, but even then it would be tough, shot to shot 1 in 1 sec, from all your normal shooting positions.

Where have I heard that before?????

Trapr

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Trapr.......I would think that would be 100% true on any stage with mixed types of ammo, lower round counts, or matches like Blue Ridge where you can't have more than 8rds in your tube at any time. I usually plan to stuff 1-2 extra rounds into my shotgun to allow for a possible miss, and currently run a 10rd tube that allows a couple extra in there compared to just running an 8rd tube. If I have time to stuff 2 shells into the gun between shooting positions, and I quad load, I can get the 2nd set of two shells in really quick comparatively.

On stage 4 at the Pro-Am: 5 plates from the opening, 5 plates from the first window, 2 plates from the 2nd window for 12 total plates. We climbed the boxes to shoot through the windows, so there was time to stuff shells in. Starting with 9 in the gun, going one for one, I only needed to load 3 shells to finish on an empty chamber.....I quad loaded 4 shells in between the opening and the first window, then had to eject a shell after shooting it clean. if I hadn't shot it clean, that extra round in the gun would have been important.

As for your point about realizing the miss. I picked up something from watching Squad One. They didn't stop, realize a plate didn't fall, then go back. They continued through and shot that plate last, or right after their reload. This was something I noticed about the really good shooters, and the better shooters in my squad...but not something I watched happen with shooters with consistently slower times.

[kurtm]

I was once asked when I would start loading quads, or dueces. My reply was as soon as I realize that the loading technique is what is beating me. Now believe me I am watching it, and I am calculating it, and guys like Jake Burki whom I shoot with a lot can do that funky stuff FAST!!!, BUT I am still not being beat by the loading. I am not saying I won't it just isn't yet. I am also anacronistic...I refuse to run a muzzle brake on an M-14, and I doubt I will ever prance around with double stacked shells. I just don't view it as practical, and I still believe in where our sport came from.

[JPeel]

..... I am also anacronistic..

Now there's a term you don't see / hear everyday!

[MarkCO]

Don't know Kurt, the entry guys using our loading systems seem to think it is VERY practical.

[kurtm]

Little clips holding shells stacked on each other does not meet my idea of practical. I have watched shells fall out when movement is vigorous...ie. running full out. Unless moved, you can't go prone without knocking the shells out of alignment/holder. A friend of mine tried a Dual load system that you would very much approve of to haul buckshot and slugs around on his 4 wheeler hunting hogs and Coyotes, and ended up with very few of either after riding for a while as the shells departed his holding system.....you know Mark, Practical stuff like that.

BTW I have never lost a shell out of Choate holder that has the retainers propperly tensioned...you know practical stuff like that.

[GM2B]

Kurt has an excellent point about guys that load fast! I can load the shotgun sub 4 but my buddy loads in 7 seconds and he beats me sometimes because I miss very fast also whereas he makes every shot count.

[02Fatboy]

Can I ask one question about how fast is fast. The question is loading the shotgun the only thing in the match. Seams like a dump question but the last time I shot THREE GUN it was with three guns just not the shotgun only so load as fast as you can go and done miss. Why I say this is because everyone thinks loading a SHOTGUN wins the match. If that was true Daniel Horner would never win a match.

[Onepocket]

Well Fatboy. I asked about being competitive with a shotgun. Nothing else.

[MarkCO]

Many years ago, the only guys who won matches were those who could load the shotgun efficiently and relatively fast. The game has changed, the stages have changed and the gear has changed. If you load the shotgun in 10 seconds, or more, for 8 shells, no, you are not going to win a major match. But then again, if that is your speed for loading the shotgun, there are likely other areas that could use improvement as well.

Try some armbands, some traditional caddies, some AP gear, some Taccom gear, some CarbonArms gear and use what works best for you. But in any case, get out and shoot.

[Deathtrap]

You guys have missed the half the advantage to load2/quads. Its not just you can load faster, it's about how much less practice it takes to get there. After 6 months of weak hand practice I could average about 7 seconds for 8 shells. With load 2 I could do 12 shells in 6 seconds within 2 hours of taking them out of the package. It literally took me longer to sand off the sharp edges than it did to learn how to use it.

Since everyone seems to be in agreement that being the guy who can load the fastest isn't what will win you the match, now you have more time to practice all the other skills that will help you win.

[co-exprs]

Bingo!

[MetropolisLake]

This is seemingly totally unrelated but I wonder if it really is. I have a mountain bike racing background. So many people there are looking for one single thing to make massive gains on in order to hang with the good guys. Seems like it was Ned Overend who finally had to explain that it's not the single items that make those guys good. It's that they're half a second faster on every switchback, a quarter second faster on every root field due to picking a better line, they're one second faster at the top of each hill, and when you add it all up, they beat you by 5-10 minutes. Just curious as to if the better guys here can see that in 3-gun or if it really is the massive gains in single subjects here.

[Jesse Tischauser]

There is no one thing that will make you a pro overnight but the new shotgun loading techniques have really made it easier to suck less in a hurry.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[JPeel]

There is no one thing that will make you a pro overnight but the new shotgun loading techniques have really made it easier to suck less in a hurry.

True - I am a helluva lot faster loading twins than i was loading from my pockets!

[glock34shooter]

I think one of the things that have made the load two and quad loading so popular is it doesn't take a lot of work or effort to become relatively proficient. Newer shooters have been able to make up some time, but now that the big guys have adapted to this we will just see the gap increase again. The types of matches I shoot have prone and positional shooting which can cause issues for load 2 or quad loading holders. I would be willing to bet if 3gun went back to its roots a little and used stage designs that had prone and adverse position L2 and quad loading would show its weaknesses.

Matt

[MarkCO]

I think one of the things that have made the load two and quad loading so popular is it doesn't take a lot of work or effort to become relatively proficient. Newer shooters have been able to make up some time, but now that the big guys have adapted to this we will just see the gap increase again. The types of matches I shoot have prone and positional shooting which can cause issues for load 2 or quad loading holders. I would be willing to bet if 3gun went back to its roots a little and used stage designs that had prone and adverse position L2 and quad loading would show its weaknesses.

Matt

Top guys were about 5 seconds for weakhand load 8, average Joes were about 12. Top speed guys now are about 4, and an average guy can easily be 6. Those would not be living room times. I'd say a 350% closign of the gap is kind of good.

The "Roots"? Of what do you speak? It was 1100s with Buckshot at plates, standing, the first several years. Or do you mean MDs should go to trying any way they can to slow down shooters and trip them up...not sure that was the way in the "roots" either. After a match had some prone shoots, I queried a few "Tactical/LE" shotgun trainers and asked them how much prone shotgun they taught. All laughed their butts off and said they had never taught prone shotgun, and would not. They do some on the side for a shot or two, but primarily the answer was they "don't do that gamey stuff".

[glock34shooter]

I think one of the things that have made the load two and quad loading so popular is it doesn't take a lot of work or effort to become relatively proficient. Newer shooters have been able to make up some time, but now that the big guys have adapted to this we will just see the gap increase again. The types of matches I shoot have prone and positional shooting which can cause issues for load 2 or quad loading holders. I would be willing to bet if 3gun went back to its roots a little and used stage designs that had prone and adverse position L2 and quad loading would show its weaknesses.Matt

Top guys were about 5 seconds for weakhand load 8, average Joes were about 12. Top speed guys now are about 4, and an average guy can easily be 6. Those would not be living room times. I'd say a 350% closign of the gap is kind of good.The "Roots"? Of what do you speak? It was 1100s with Buckshot at plates, standing, the first several years. Or do you mean MDs should go to trying any way they can to slow down shooters and trip them up...not sure that was the way in the "roots" either. After a match had some prone shoots, I queried a few "Tactical/LE" shotgun trainers and asked them how much prone shotgun they taught. All laughed their butts off and said they had never taught prone shotgun, and would not. They do some on the side for a shot or two, but primarily the answer was they "don't do that gamey stuff".

As was pointed out before, 3gun involves more than one gun. I was more speaking of a stage design that had positional shooting in general not exclusively to shotgun. As an active police officer, trainer, swat operator, and swat sniper I am well versed in the likelyhood of specifically shooting a shotgun prone. Prone rifle and pistol on the other hand is done and taught regularly. I understand you make products that you want to sell and support and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, but the fact remains that none of the L2 or quad systems will work well if a stage has prone or positional shooting. Now I did recently purchase some AP L2/4 holders, because I am not opposed to trying new things. I just have to figure out how they work in the type of matches I run and attend. I guess what it really boils down to with most people that have been shooting 3gun for several years is all the work that was spent training and practicing has been surpassed by a piece of equipment. This reality is both good and bad depending on which side of the line you are standing on.

Matt

[Jesse Tischauser]

I think one of the things that have made the load two and quad loading so popular is it doesn't take a lot of work or effort to become relatively proficient. Newer shooters have been able to make up some time, but now that the big guys have adapted to this we will just see the gap increase again. The types of matches I shoot have prone and positional shooting which can cause issues for load 2 or quad loading holders. I would be willing to bet if 3gun went back to its roots a little and used stage designs that had prone and adverse position L2 and quad loading would show its weaknesses.

Matt

Ive only been shooting for 3-4 years now but I have never been asked to go prone with a waste line full of caddys on knowing that I'd have to use the shells that were just in the dirt. That's just doesn't make sense. What MD would make you load dirty ammo into your gun?

I did go prone on stage 6 at FNH last weekend with a two TACCOM quads (one empty, one full) and a AP Customs L2/4 that was full. I was excited to see that after going prone, getting up from prone, running 20 yards and climbing a roof top I didn't loose a shell.

My point is I don't know what weaknesses these new techniques have compared to weak hand? The definitely don't look ATAS!

[MarkCO]

Matt, we've been going prone on them for almost 3 years now, we are not losing shells. Jamie Foote was flopping on the ground to disprove your point 2 years ago. 3 Blue Ridge matches ago, I winced when Casanova flopped down on the asphalt path with 16 rounds, but when he got up with 16 rounds and went on to finish with no issues, we have not been concerned about it since. Sure there are some of the designs you should not go prone with, but don't dismiss what you don't know.