HP-38 and WST test with 124gr,HBRN not happy with WST

[CZ85]

These were shot out of my CZ85 with a CZ custom trigger job.

Why are my groups better at 4.1 grains of the WST with a PF of 124. When I came up to 4.3 PF125 and 4.4 PF 126 I opened up on my groups and even tho I met PF Im not happy with my groups plus. I drew arrows to the ones in question. The HP-38 at 4.4 grains was actually better groups for some reason ??? and had a PF of 128

Also what does my SD-- standard deviation mean to me or am I concerned?

I know I should be able to tighten my groups up with the WST but how??

Will I see a change if I shorten or lenghten my OAL To say 1.120 ,1.130 ,1.150. Seems alot of guys use this powder for IDPA,I would think they get better groups than this ?

All were shot from a rest at 10 yards

Berry 124 grain HBRN

CZ-85

1.140 OAL

Federal primers

new starline brass

Edited August 19, 2013 by CZ85

[rdinga]

Try a different bullet and/or adjust your OAL

[Steve RA]

Try Clays - start @ 3.0 grs or 4756 - start @ 4.0. Then you can work up from there if necessary.

[DWFAN]

Those groups look fine, plus, Berrys aren't exactly known for producing tight groups. Are you shooting from a bench/rested or freestyle?

The holes with the arrow look fine as well. The paper tears a little. It may be a sign of tumbling, but it does not appear that way to me. Put the target on a good carboard backer, or use just cardboard to make sure if it still concerns you.

126PF is not enough if you plan on shooting those rounds in matches where they chrono. Both powders are temp sensitive, you'll end up shooting for no score in IDPA trying to run that close to min PF.

[EngineerEli]

4.1 of WST at 1.140 with a bayou 124 was my load all season for my stock II and i loved it! Through my gun i was getting arround 130 PF. I would possibly agree that the bullet may be the culprit. It's a little hard to tell from the picture but those shots are all plenty good enough for A zone shots right? Which loads did you shoot first, could you have been getting fatigued a little?

[MainlineSteve]

Looking at the groups, SDs and velocities, my first thought is that your results may have been different had you changed the group firing order. Sometimes you'll be unconsciously compensating toward the end of a string and carry that over to the next, skewing results...

Your SD dropped to 8, so speeds are very consistent. By all means, experiment with aol. A little shorter may give you just that little bit of speed you seek, or a longer aol with more powder (if prudent) could do it. Or not. Sometimes it just comes down to trial and error...

[CZ85]

Shot the HP first. Maybe the wrist getting tired holding that gun on the sandbag. Barrel was not supported just the hands and butt of the gun.

If I drop my OAL say down to 1.130 and 1.120 to see if that helps,how much do I come off the load? Say Im using the one at 4.4 grains with the 1.140 OAL as my best group at that OAL.

Do I keep the 4.4 grains the same and load a few at 1.120 and 1.130 with 4.4 grains or do I need to come off the charge weight? I know if I go up to say 1.150 OAL I would increase the charge to find my PF of 130.

If my PF is at 125 know would it bump up to 130PF with the same 4.4 grains if I loaded them at 1.120 or 1.130 ?

The OAL does confuse me at times but Im sort of anal when it comes to measurements so Im trying to fine tune things. I dont like,,"Well thats good enough for what your doing". I figure the tighter I am at 10 yards when I move back to fifteen or 20 my groups wil open up

Doing the push test on 3 different plated RN bullets I came up with 1.185 for my barrel so with an off set of .015 that gives me a max OAL of 1.173 which is way over SAMI max anyway. So I can load them anywhere between 1.100 up to SAMI max if I wanted to. I picked 1.140 as a starting point and would like to fine tune from there.

Another question.

Does a 9mm with 124gr.RN like a medium burn rate powder like Ramshot silhouette or a faster one like Bullseye?

I have 4 pounds of Ramshot so I would love to make that powder work also.

Still have to test my pound of Bullseye ,along with the HP-38 and the WST

[DWFAN]

I think you'll find that staying at 4.4 and playing with the OAL will have very little effect on your PF (2-3 difference maybe?). Go up or down in .010 increments and test from there. 1.150, 1.130, 1.120 and 1.110. You might watch for pressure with the WST if you take this method. Without digging too much, I can't find good data with a 124 bullet.

I missed the part about 10 yards. I would blame the bullet before anything else. Try more and or less crimp if you want also. Plated bullets are known to be crimp sensitive.

Does a 9mm with 124gr.RN like a medium burn rate powder like Ramshot silhouette or a faster one like Bullseye?

I'm not aware of a concrete rule, it's trial and error. Almost all guns are different. Depends on twist rate, velocity and a whole host of other things. The slower powders will have more recoil.

[CZ85]

I think you'll find that staying at 4.4 and playing with the OAL will have very little effect on your PF (2-3 difference maybe?). Go up or down in .010 increments and test from there. 1.150, 1.130, 1.120 and 1.110. You might watch for pressure with the WST if you take this method. Without digging too much, I can't find good data with a 124 bullet.

I missed the part about 10 yards. I would blame the bullet before anything else. Try more and or less crimp if you want also. Plated bullets are known to be crimp sensitive.

Does a 9mm with 124gr.RN like a medium burn rate powder like Ramshot silhouette or a faster one like Bullseye?

I'm not aware of a concrete rule, it's trial and error. Almost all guns are different. Depends on twist rate, velocity and a whole host of other things. The slower powders will have more recoil.

Actually I do not have to crimp at all. I use a lynman neck expander and expand just a hair for the bullet to sit in the case. When I seat it brings the expanded part back in. I pulled the bullets and I have no marks on them and they measure the same going in as they did when I pulled them.

My crimp is .375 to .376 all the time. Is this ok??

[MainlineSteve]

I think you'll do better with the powders you have now than to switch to bullseye. You're still running at pretty light load levels with the WST, not even in "the powerband", so I'd work up from there until you find something you like. Even 4.8 would be considered light.

Silhouette usually gives good speed at good pressure with the 124-125 gn projectiles. As far as accuracy goes, I've not had great results from Berry's, nor RN in general, but YMMV. You might at least match what you got from the HP-38, eh?

[DWFAN]

I think you'll find that staying at 4.4 and playing with the OAL will have very little effect on your PF (2-3 difference maybe?). Go up or down in .010 increments and test from there. 1.150, 1.130, 1.120 and 1.110. You might watch for pressure with the WST if you take this method. Without digging too much, I can't find good data with a 124 bullet.

I missed the part about 10 yards. I would blame the bullet before anything else. Try more and or less crimp if you want also. Plated bullets are known to be crimp sensitive.

Does a 9mm with 124gr.RN like a medium burn rate powder like Ramshot silhouette or a faster one like Bullseye?

I'm not aware of a concrete rule, it's trial and error. Almost all guns are different. Depends on twist rate, velocity and a whole host of other things. The slower powders will have more recoil.

Actually I do not have to crimp at all. I use a lynman neck expander and expand just a hair for the bullet to sit in the case. When I seat it brings the expanded part back in. I pulled the bullets and I have no marks on them and they measure the same going in as they did when I pulled them.

My crimp is .375 to .376 all the time. Is this ok??

Probably, but like mentioned. Trial and error.

[CZ85]

I think you'll find that staying at 4.4 and playing with the OAL will have very little effect on your PF (2-3 difference maybe?). Go up or down in .010 increments and test from there. 1.150, 1.130, 1.120 and 1.110.

I'm not aware of a concrete rule, it's trial and error. Almost all guns are different. Depends on twist rate, velocity and a whole host of other things. The slower powders will have more recoil.

Actually I do not have to crimp at all. I use a lynman neck expander and expand just a hair for the bullet to sit in the case. When I seat it brings the expanded part back in. I pulled the bullets and I have no marks on them and they measure the same going in as they did when I pulled them.

My crimp is .375 to .376 all the time. Is this ok??

Probably, but like mentioned. Trial and error.

Edited August 23, 2013 by CZ85

[CZ85]

Sorry I forgot to mention. I'm still new to all this as of Feb. Sorry for the repeat questions and the confused ones. Bare with me at times

Thanks!!

[CeeZer]

Try Clays - start @ 3.0 grs or 4756 - start @ 4.0. Then you can work up from there if necessary.

Those two are very different powders, Clays is fast and 4756 is slow. I used both and would never go back to 4756 shooting Minor in Production.

Also, those two - WST and HP-38 (Win 231) are fine powders for Minor PF.

The reasons I use Clays - low charge per load, cheap and available, soft recoil, not too dirty, low flash and not as loud.

[CZ85]

Ok. I went out and shot this AM

These are some left over 4.4 grains of HP38 that I used to sight the gun in.I loaded 150 for the match and had some extras to shoot so I could sight in the new gun. They only make a PF of 126 so I need to go up some for 130 PF. Maybe up to 4.6 in powder charge. OAL is still 1.140. You can see how I had to adjust up in the sight and over to the right a bit from mag 1, mag 2, and mag 3 Starting to hand shake a bit on the 3rd and 4th mag

Mixed brass 124 grain Berry HBRN at 10 yards both hands. Had to shoot to sight in for IDPA match on Sunday.

Still have to play with the WST

The other target is from one of my little CZ-82"s makarov round. It had been about 2 months since I had pulled the trigger on one so It took me some time to adjust my point of aim. Up and down were fine I just need to drift the rear sight over to the right a little bit. This was also at about 10 yards standing. 3.6 grains of HP-38.

These primers look ok ? they are CCI.

Also trying to learn how to read primers that are over pressure

You spend so much time on one gun and learning it you forget how the others shoot and have to learn all over again

[Sandbagger123]

i have loaded lots of 9mm with WST. I recently got some more WSF and experimented with it. out of my guns, it got the same velocity at about the same load. This tells me that WST has finished burning before it leaves the barrel. I also noticed that groups with WSF were smaller than WST for the same PF.

the funny thing is i have not found WST to be an issue in 40 or 45 at max loads. plenty accurate and good velocity.

on the Bullseye powder, you will find out in short order that it will leave the front end of your gun very dirty. thta being said, its still a great powder.

I am going to reserve my WsT for 40 and 45 and load 9mm with WSF, when i can find it.

[MstngLX50]

CZ85 - Are you familiar with the Quickload software? Based on your questions and your desire to get down in the weeds with 9 differently loads at once you might want to look into it. Quickload allows you to make all the little changes like .1gr more powder 1.15oal vs 1.1 and see what's happening pressure and velocity wise. It's not mac level easy to use, there's a learning curve but once you have it sorted it's pretty awesome.

http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

[kamikaze1a]

Why not bump up the HP-38 and stick with that? It's a great powder and if you are getting good accuracy why not load that?

As you further your reloading experience, you will that you will end up with a collection of various powders, bullets and even primers. I think most reloaders try different components and often shelve it when they were not satisfied with the results. Eventually, you will probably find an application for that component or be forced to use it when supply is tight. Right now with the current powder/primer situation, I am making good use of my shelved powders and primers....

[CZ85]

Why not bump up the HP-38 and stick with that? It's a great powder and if you are getting good accuracy why not load that?

As you further your reloading experience, you will that you will end up with a collection of various powders, bullets and even primers. I think most reloaders try different components and often shelve it when they were not satisfied with the results. Eventually, you will probably find an application for that component or be forced to use it when supply is tight. Right now with the current powder/primer situation, I am making good use of my shelved powders and primers....

I might.You never know. These last test shots were not to bad for plated and mixed brass

[tiger49931]

berrys never grouped well for me thats why i went to bear creek and wst now i get one hole at 10 yards off a bench and 1" groups at 25 off a bench in my M&P pro 5"