2 Revolver Subdivisions in USPSA Revolver

[mcb]

Count me as thinking that this is both a pointless discussion as affecting far too few people and a pointless rule change as to make the equipment that has been the standard of the revolver division obsolete.

How does it make sense to continue a division as is where "the equipment that has been the standard of the revolver division" the 5" 625 has been discontinued for years? Add 8 shooters scored minor to the mix and IMHO also add 6 shot speedloader guns scored major at a >120 PF.

I said it before, will say it again. Tom I really do like your idea of 6-shot Major, 8-shot Minor, and letting 6-shot speedloaders scored Major shooting Minor PF. I really think this would be open Revolver Equipement up as much as is realistically/competitively possible with minimal fuss on the logistics/scoring side.

The frustrating part for me is the lack of data. We need time and sufficient number of round-gun shooters to get good data. Especially shooters that shoot the same match with two or three of these setups. We could pretty quickly hash out if one setups is going to dominate the division with that type of data. Right now lots of people are assuming it will/won't. I have yet to see any real volume of data for or against the proposed 6-Major/8-Minor change.

[Tom E]

There is 6 major vs 8 minor data posted from the Rio Salada outlaw matches.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=168982

Then there's our classification system that should also be an equalizer.

[caswellranch2013]

Then there's our classification system that should also be an equalizer.

How so ?

[Tom E]

Then there's our classification system that should also be an equalizer.

How so ?

Shoot a 58% classiifer it won't matter if you do it with a 6 mjor or 8 minor, it's still 58%. So you'll be competing in class against others with a like skill level shooting their gun be it 8 shot or 6 shot.

[Bosshoss]

Then there's our classification system that should also be an equalizer.

How so ?

Shoot a 58% classiifer it won't matter if you do it with a 6 mjor or 8 minor, it's still 58%. So you'll be competing in class against others with a like skill level shooting their gun be it 8 shot or 6 shot.

Not on all classifiers.

There are several that are 8 shot strings or 14 shots that will make a huge differance in classifier score on these.

Here is THE WORST one (IMO) for a 8 shot advantage.

http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/03-08.pdf

This one REQUIRES 3 reloads to shoot with a 6 shot gun vs 1 reload with a 8 shot gun.

Keep in mind that the classifier is also part of the match score so a 6 shot gun will also be affected in the match results with a classifier like the one above in the match.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Bosshoss

[caswellranch2013]

Tom E

With you there but in a match with the now normal 8 shot arrays not so much.

Got a 627 yesterday just in case.

Also, I shot all my revolver classifiers with 6 shot speedloader gun in minor, what happens to the numbers running an 8 shot if the classifier has 8 shots.

Edited August 9, 2013 by caswellranch2013

[Cd662]

"No fancy mags, no scrounging for brass like a beach crab looking for food, no major equipment race"

I think we may be acting a bit nostalgic here. I think a competitive revo setup is going to cost as much as a Production or Single Stack setup.

"Nice attitude, no wonder there is a problem with attendance numbers of revolver shooters. way to marginalize!"

Yeah, I guess helping out at nearly every local ICORE match, talking to people about SSR in IDPA, and EXCLUSIVELY SHOOTING speedloader fed K frames with minor power factor make me a real jerk. I guess I have a reputation to uphold!

But to keep the thread relevant, and this will be my last post since I know we'll all want to turn the wheels for the next few months with weekly threads. I honestly think people are just being clouded by the mystique of the "simple revolver". In reality, speedloaders are costly

1. The speedloaders themselves cost more money

2. The cost of lost brass, especially at matches where you can't pick

3. The cost of time and the associated risk factor of maybe getting a case under the star or not having a clean extraction

I already did a cost analysis on another thread that includes how much money it would cost to get a gun up in decent working order. You need at least to have a good chamfer job or you'll sit there messing with the gun for an inordinate amount of time. You need at least six speedloader holders and speedloaders to compete in USPSA, and that gives you very little margin for error (light strikes, a blown reload, a dropped speedloader). The reason people don't want to shoot speedloaders isn't because they're being scored as minor power factor. It's difficult. I'm probably going to continue to do it because I have been enjoying the challenge and its been improving my scores, compared to ICORE Limited shooters of equivalent class and percentage. As far as USPSA goes, if you have your reloads down, its not an issue. If you practice hard and you nail your reloads, it can be just as fast as a moonclip reload. Like someone else mentioned earlier, in USPSA I end up spending far more time worrying about recovering my gear than I do with the actual scoring. Moonclips are just easier to deal with, in that regard. From a performance standpoint though, speedloader fed guns ARE ALLOWED right now in the Revolver division and you can probably make them work for you if you really want to. I think scoring any speedloader fed gun as major would significantly alter the scoring balance of USPSA. If someone wants to do things like the Memphis Charity match does and unofficially recognize a "speedloader only" category, then by all means, let's give it a whirl. Maybe if there's a big surge of guys that want to run their speedloaders, we can visit this discussion down the road.

That having been said, Revo division is kind of a joke in USPSA to a lot of people. By all means, petition to have THREE sub categories for the revolver division, and hope that the guy with his Model 10 and two HKS speedloaders is willing to make the significant financial investment to be able to compete with gear that he's most likely going to be frustrated with after a few weeks of using it. If things don't make sense, we shouldn't do them.

[Tom E]

Also, I shot all my revolver classifiers with 6 shot speedloader gun in minor, what happens to the numbers running an 8 shot if the classifier has 8 shots.

Then you'll do a reload the 8 shooter shouldn't have to make. 6 major just gets better hit scoring. In my:

8 shooters scored minor with a >120PF

6 & 7 shooters, moonclip fed, scored major with a >160 PF, scored minor with a >120 to 160 PF

6 & 7 shooters, speedloader fed, scored major with a >120 PF

which I still think is the way to go, and hope will be considered, your speedloader 6 shooter would get major scoring. Gonna be the "gun of choice"? I doubt it but you'll have a better chance than you do now.

Nothings perfect but we have an almost non-existent division. Time to do something.

Edit: The MCC recognizes a speedloader "catagory". Anybody have a link to results for that? High speedloader? I checked the USPSA results listing but that doesn't show who shot speedloaders.

They do show who shot minor. Roger Davis Was high "minor" at 77.4% and 8th overall.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Tom E

[Tom E]

But to keep the thread relevant, and this will be my last post since I know we'll all want to turn the wheels for the next few months with weekly threads. I honestly think people are just being clouded by the mystique of the "simple revolver". In reality, speedloaders are costly

1. The speedloaders themselves cost more money

2. The cost of lost brass, especially at matches where you can't pick

3. The cost of time and the associated risk factor of maybe getting a case under the star or not having a clean extraction

I already did a cost analysis on another thread that includes how much money it would cost to get a gun up in decent working order. You need at least to have a good chamfer job or you'll sit there messing with the gun for an inordinate amount of time. You need at least six speedloader holders and speedloaders to compete in USPSA, and that gives you very little margin for error (light strikes, a blown reload, a dropped speedloader). The reason people don't want to shoot speedloaders isn't because they're being scored as minor power factor. It's difficult. I'm probably going to continue to do it because I have been enjoying the challenge and its been improving my scores, compared to ICORE Limited shooters of equivalent class and percentage. As far as USPSA goes, if you have your reloads down, its not an issue. If you practice hard and you nail your reloads, it can be just as fast as a moonclip reload. Like someone else mentioned earlier, in USPSA I end up spending far more time worrying about recovering my gear than I do with the actual scoring. Moonclips are just easier to deal with, in that regard. From a performance standpoint though, speedloader fed guns ARE ALLOWED right now in the Revolver division and you can probably make them work for you if you really want to. I think scoring any speedloader fed gun as major would significantly alter the scoring balance of USPSA. If someone wants to do things like the Memphis Charity match does and unofficially recognize a "speedloader only" category, then by all means, let's give it a whirl. Maybe if there's a big surge of guys that want to run their speedloaders, we can visit this discussion down the road.

That having been said, Revo division is kind of a joke in USPSA to a lot of people. By all means, petition to have THREE sub categories for the revolver division, and hope that the guy with his Model 10 and two HKS speedloaders is willing to make the significant financial investment to be able to compete with gear that he's most likely going to be frustrated with after a few weeks of using it. If things don't make sense, we shouldn't do them.

Good grief.

" In reality, speedloaders are costly" So what? What isn't? Does it keep people from shooting ICORE Classic?

"speedloader fed guns ARE ALLOWED right now in the Revolver division and you can probably make them work for you if you really want to" Sure, you can come play. I have with my 14-7 and speedloaders but the minor scoring is a killer and combined with slower reloads... I place better with my 625 shooting major and would still place better if my speedloader gun was scored major. I'm not one of the "gifted few" who thinks he can do speedloader reloads as fast as moonclips.

If you have a six shooter or two there's a good chance you have speedloaders too. I shoot a local winter PPC series with a six shooter and speedloaders. Why not make it reasonable (and as I've said I don't think major scoring would make this "the gun of choice") for them to come out and play?

Where do you get the "THREE sub categories"? All I'm proposing is whos' scored major and who's scored minor. We do that now. Does that mean we currently have TWO sub catagories?

Edited August 9, 2013 by Tom E

[caswellranch2013]

Also, I shot all my revolver classifiers with 6 shot speedloader gun in minor, what happens to the numbers running an 8 shot if the classifier has 8 shots.

Then you'll do a reload the 8 shooter shouldn't have to make. 6 major just gets better hit scoring. In my:

8 shooters scored minor with a >120PF

6 & 7 shooters, moonclip fed, scored major with a >160 PF, scored minor with a >120 to 160 PF

6 & 7 shooters, speedloader fed, scored major with a >120 PF

which I still think is the way to go, and hope will be considered, your speedloader 6 shooter would get major scoring. Gonna be the "gun of choice"? I doubt it but you'll have a better chance than you do now.

Nothings perfect but we have an almost non-existent division. Time to do something.

Edit: The MCC recognizes a speedloader "catagory". Anybody have a link to results for that? High speedloader? I checked the USPSA results listing but that doesn't show who shot speedloaders.

They do show who shot minor. Roger Davis Was high "minor" at 77.4% and 8th overall.

O.K. cool on your list shooting speedloaders at minor and scoring it major I would run speedloader what ever the match set up (8 shot arrays or not),

Not going to happen, opens up a big can of worms, minor = major in a division why not production etc,etc.

[Tom E]

O.K. cool on your list shooting speedloaders at minor and scoring it major I would run speedloader what ever the match set up (8 shot arrays or not),

Sounds good to me. Glad you like the idea.

[caswellranch2013]

I'll wait and see what the new rules bring but looks to me like the 6 shot GP with speedloaders is for IDPA and a shot at DM at the S&W Indoor Nationals, 8 shot 627 for USPSA with stage set-up the way it is.