racerba Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Why would anyone care if a dude doesn't wear a shirt?Agreed. I've heard of some people shooting without shoes...I think that is worse than shooting without a shirt...but it's been done... We live in a world where there are laws that prevents us from doing this and doing that...for our safety. Imposing, rather demanding someone to wear a shirt is just as bad. You are imposing your views on others. Since it is not a safety issue, I would advise him of the consequences and if he wants to risk it, so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 1. I've been shooting in the Mojave Desert for over a decade now where temperatures peak in the mid-100's, and I've never once seen it so hot that somebody had to take off their shirt to shoot. If it can be argued that taking off one's shirt somehow falls under the purvue of free speech or whatever, then it begs the question, "How naked can a competitor get before he or she is too naked?" The simple standard to be employed, in my opinion, is that a person should be "fully clothed" as most reasonable people would define "fully clothed". That answer to me is found at the entryway to pretty much every business out there, short of those at the beach boardwalk: "No shirt, no shoes, no service." 2. I absolutely see how this could be defined as a safety issue-- and I would definitely call no shoes a safety issue. If the RO or MD saw this as a safety issue (and he was there seeing more of the safety issues than us armchair generals) then why would anybody question him? 3. If nothing else, I'll put it another way-- if a woman were shooting topless, I can 100% assert that that alone would cause enough of a substantial distraction as to create a safety hazard... and potentially put the sport into disrepute. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, eh? If women shooters are required to wear a shirt, then men should be required to wear a shirt. 4. Finally, whatever happened to simply respecting the Match Director??? 10.6.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 if a woman were shooting topless, I can 100% assert that that alone would cause enough of a substantial distraction as to create a safety hazard... and potentially put the sport into disrepute. Probably some AD's too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 if a woman were shooting topless, I can 100% assert that that alone would cause enough of a substantial distraction as to create a safety hazard... and potentially put the sport into disrepute. Probably some AD's too! I will say that I'm one cheap SOB, but if it's ruled that we can shoot topless, I'd like to sponsor a few more female memberships at my club. Equal rights, you know. (OKAY, NEVERMIND, IT'S A JOKE!!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 (edited) I have never seen anybody with no shirt in Florida. It is as hot and humid as it gets here. You probably don't see him around much in North Florida but we do have one here in Florida that I rarely see with a shirt. Not sure, but I think he's been told by MD's at majors to put the shirt on when ROing. I see him ROing with shirt, and then he's without shirt when away from a stage. It's kind of funny in a way. Sometimes I check my watch in the morning to see how long it takes for the shirt to come off. It's usually not long. Edited July 11, 2013 by grapemeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Perhaps my view is skewed due to my athletic background. It's pretty normal to play basketball or ultimate frisbee without a shirt, and it's a little weird to play outdoor volleyball *with* a shirt. I figure outdoor activities that don't involve food are pretty casual dress. Indoors, or at the table, different story. I did wear a shirt for the steel match monday before last when it was 110, but I also wore swimtrunks and flip flops, and all of it was wet since I brought a 7 gallon jug of cold water to hose down with. Being hot sucks. (shot personal best times in all 4 stages, btw). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 (edited) Perhaps my view is skewed due to my athletic background. It's pretty normal to play basketball or ultimate frisbee without a shirt, and it's a little weird to play outdoor volleyball *with* a shirt. I figure outdoor activities that don't involve food are pretty casual dress. Indoors, or at the table, different story. I did wear a shirt for the steel match monday before last when it was 110, but I also wore swimtrunks and flip flops, and all of it was wet since I brought a 7 gallon jug of cold water to hose down with. Being hot sucks. (shot personal best times in all 4 stages, btw). We're talking about real, organized matches, not pickup games at the park. Yes, beach volleyball is played shirtless, but we don't shoot pistol matches yards away from crashing waves. Every organized game short of beach volleyball, water sports, and ring fighting has a uniform, even if that uniform is a simple T-shirt with "Joe's Auto Shop" printed on the back. It connotes legitimacy. Can you imagine an adult softball, baseball, soccer, golf, tennis, or you name it league being taken seriously if their players routinely took to the field shirtless? Frankly, I would look at them as rinky-dink, and I don't want this sport to be viewed as anything other than 100% legit. I believe that we are all representatives of this sport and need to go "above and beyond" when representing it. Even when it's hot. Edited July 11, 2013 by jkrispies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock26Toter Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 I stayed quiet through all the FB stuff, but this discussion just keeps going so here's my .02. I was there for ALL OF IT. I personally heard a competitor ask the range official to ask the guy to put his shirt back on. This means that it was "offensive dress" and the officials were just trying to make everyone happy. I was also there when after initially complying with the "reasonable request" the guy decided to take his shirt back off. I was also there when, after the second request to put his shirt back on, the conversation spun out of control into a huge rant about how there was no rule and that he was flat not going to comply. That's when the 10.6.2 thing came up as the MD was trying to maintain his authority and it just became a "look, do what I'm asking or go home." Then the rant turned to FB and personal insults started flying. I respect the match officials for not getting sucked down to his level. They just stated their case and stood by their decision and let this person rant on about how much they sucked. I personally side with them as I did feel a bit uncomfortable standing next to shirtless guy and was glad when he put his shirt back on. (I too often go shirtless when working sometimes... when appropriate.) I think this guy made a huge mountain out of a mole hill. I may never see him again and I really don't care. If I do... "hey, welcome back... let's shoot!" because I CAN let things go. I'm also capable of recognizing when I should just keep my mouth shut so we can keep the situation light, fun, and all just enjoy the day. Complying with something I might not like, (such as taping and brassing) but isn't really a big deal is worth it so we can all enjoy the sport. He should have grumbled later to his wife and not freaked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Sounds like the shooter blew it out of proportion and acted as many do...entitled. Out of common respect for those around you, be it shooters, women, or children, he should have conformed. Our sport is freestyle...but every reference to freestyle in the rule book deals with the c.o.f and stage design. Not that you can disrespect the feelings of those around you. Just my .02$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 It is hot.. It is July and your sweaty upper torso is not what I want brushing up against me in the shade as we try and load up magazines. It gets crowded under the shade structure. I do not need to smell you and your perspiration as you load up up-wind of the rest of the squad. I regularly go shirtless in practice during the hot days because I am usually running between jobs, and do not want my shirt to get gp or lube residue on it. At a match, then it is a different story. Let's just keep our shirts on people. PLEASE! JZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 If it really concerns you one way or the other, ask Amidon. I did, got a response, and the MD/RM was within the rulebook to make the request. The actual answer from Amidon was sent to the club presidents in the section. Really should be a non-issue and the topic of this thread is the kind that really hurts the sport, not improves it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock26Toter Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Good move MarkCO. I'm not sure I agree about the topic hurting the sport. (if that's what you meant.) I think that reasonable discussions about things like this are good for all of us. Hence my staying out of the FB rant as that was just an argument, whereas this is a real live discussion. We all push the rules to the max in this sport... that's part of the game. Go as far as you can to game the sport and see what you can get away with. I don't see the harm in that during all aspects of the match. However, when you step past that line (sometimes literally) all you need to do is dial it back and chill out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Like it or not running around without a shirt is considered to be in poor taste by the vast majority. I know contractors who make their guys keep their shirts on because homeowners have asked that they do. About the only guys that seem to be immune from this basic rule are the roofers. When I am outside working I will occasionally take my shirt off. If somebody stops by I always have it handy and put it on while talking with them. I'm not the dashing figure I used to be but then again I have always felt the same way about wearing shirts in public. Most establishments still require shirts be worn. Can't help but think of the carnies that come to town when I think of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 (edited) I was present for the verbal exchange, and also skimmed some of the Facebook drama, and frankly I just want this whole thing to go away. That said, I believe the rules were cited correctly and the match official in question was in the right. Regardless of the specific language of 5.3, a match official made what I would consider to be a "reasonable request" so 10.6.1 covers it. I may or may not personally agree with or endorse the action taken but those are the rules. Edited July 15, 2013 by MoNsTeR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Amish 1 Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 ... PS this is texas. We shoot in 108 and wear pants speak for yourself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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