Carry Gun-Self Defense?

[cybrosh]

Hello everyone,

Already posted a similar question at the Stock forums, but it was deleted by accident.

Anyhow, I'm interested a well made Carry gun such as the Springfield Champion. As so many already told me, the 1911 was meant to be 5", and yet no one was still able to convince me to give up my passion for 4" barrels

As an IPSC shooter, I've already spend a lot of money on a custom limited/modified SPS gun, but it is...for competition. I am now looking for a 4", 45. carry gun for self defense purposes. Before anyone yells Wilson! I already came to a sad conclusion that 2000$ is too rich for my bloody. I'm looking to spend 1000$ + and nothing more(If I start customizing, I'll get to 3000$ in no time...). So my decision narrows down to Springfield and Kimber. Looking at Springfield, I'll choose the Champion. Kimber however, is a different story...so many models, no specs at their website, I have no idea where to start looking and searching for info! I reside overseas and don't have a Kimber dealer Maybe Eclipse Pro II?

Help anyone?

Cybrosh.

[rhino]

The strong point of the Kimber guns is that they do a damn fine job of fitting their barrels on a consistent basis. Sure, it will vary from gun to gun, but in general, they do a much, much better job than Springfield.

They are also more likely to be 100% reliable from the box, in my experience.

On the other hand, the Springfield Loaded guns have better ergonomics, primarily because they use the S&A high rise grip safety. The grip safety Kimber uses is ... a piece of crap.

Another factor: unless you get ahold of an older (series 1) gun, you'll have to deal with the firing pin block in a new Kimber. You might get lucky and it won't cause you any trouble, but I've had trouble with mine and it's just not necessary for a 1911.

If you're wanting to spend about $1000, I think you should give another look at the STI guns. If I were buying another .45, it would be an STI.

[cybrosh]

Rhino,

Just read all the threads about the new Series II FP problems. Then checked more and saw some nice stories about your 9mm Springf'

I don't think I'll be able to get a first Gen. Kimber. The Eclipse Pro II looks really good, but would it work? Is there a way to get rid of the FPB. I think I saw something on the the threads, but that invovled taping the safety grip. How about disabling the grip safety and changing the FP block to a normal 1911 fp? possible?

Looking at STI, the ranger seems ok, and with STI's reputation I couldn't go wrong. That is actually the main reason why I took my custom SPS in the first place. Not a single malfunction after shooting 7K(knock woodx3). But I did pay$$$.

*I am seriously thinking about extending my budget to a Wilson.

[rhino]

I don't think I'll be able to get a first Gen. Kimber. The Eclipse Pro II looks really good, but would it work? Is there a way to get rid of the FPB. I think I saw something on the the threads, but that invovled taping the safety grip. How about disabling the grip safety and changing the FP block to a normal 1911 fp? possible?

You can disable the firing pin block if you choose, but remember that you may be incurring some addition level of liability. I don't see a problem with it, but it's important to make an informed decision.

The best way to eliminate the firing pin block is to remove the rear sight and take it out all together. Another option is to use an old-fashioned "series 70" firing pin.

I would determine whether or not a particular gun is going to have a problem before I did any of that, though. If it works, it works.

Looking at STI, the ranger seems ok, and with STI's reputation I couldn't go wrong. That is actually the main reason why I took my custom SPS in the first place. Not a single malfunction after shooting 7K(knock woodx3). But I did pay$$$.

*I am seriously thinking about extending my budget to a Wilson. 

I think STI makes better guns that Wilson. If you're going to spend Wilson-style money, I think you'd be well served by considering Rock River Arms and Les Baer. I'd put all three ahead of Wilson, given the examples I've seen in person.

[blackdragon]

Cybrosh,

Which ever you choose if you are going to use it for a carry gun I wouldn't de activate the grip safety.

Ivan

[DougBarnes101]

As long as you are going to consider Wilson you might want to consider Les Baer and the Thunder Ranch Special. I have one that I use for Limited 10 and it is my carry gun also. A great gun and I was able to pick mine up for $1300. new. Just my .02

[Flexmoney]

Glock 30.

[cybrosh]

Well, Les Baer never crossed my mind, I thought it was WAY too expensive, but the Concept VIII looks good. I wouldn't mind 'investing' another extra 600$, knowing I wouldn't have to run to my local gun dealer/gunsmith all the time, I just hate that.

I want something out of the box, to operate at 100% efficiency.

Any more suggestions? I haven't made up my mind, and at this rate...

Ivan, I'm used to Jericho's(Baby eagle), CZ's, USP's. My SPS is my first 'real' 1911, actually 2011, gun, so the grip safety isn't that important to me, haven't had much experience with it. Where I live, we don't carry handguns in condition one(only in certain areas of the country), which is unreasonable and ridiculous - but that's the way it is, and sometimes it's for the best.

*You'll never catch me holding a Gaston toy I need a safety or I'll go crazy...

Our little shooting community(Bul M5's country)has an endless debate on which polymer/plastic is better, HK or Glock It never ends.

[smokshwn]

Cy,

I don't know if you had read my post earlier about the Wilson KZ series. Wilson KZ compact

Wilson makes it in a fullsize and compact models. Some would scream polymer gun, but the frame is very similar to the S-I's or SPS. Both the fullsize and compact come in just over 1k new however I picked my fullsize up barely used for $750.00. The grip is a git different than a true single stack however it is no wider nor longer. The bonus is that the fullsize is 10+1 and the compact is 9+1 or you can also use the fullsize mags as well. Take a look, mine has been very reliable after 5-6k rds of full house ammo and it is on my hip everyday.

If you are only interested in a true singlestack I will back up many here and say go with the STI Trojan or Ranger in the shorter version. More gun than either Kimber and Springfield for the money IMHO.

Good Luck

[AikiDale]

Anyhow, I'm interested a well made Carry gun such as the Springfield Champion. As so many already told me, the 1911 was meant to be 5", and yet no one was still able to convince me to give up my passion for 4" barrels

The shorter barrels are sometimes not as reliable as the 5". I have no experience with 4" but have had 3" guns from several manufacturers in several configurations fail to feed because of the shortened time for the magazine spring to feed a round before the slide returns. And then there is the shortened sight radius....

None of which is to say you should not have a 4" carry gun. I agree with Rhino however, check out the STI Ranger for a top notch pistol for under $1000.

[cybrosh]

Smok,

I did read your post about the polymer KZ. However, I am interested in a singlestack all metal/steel gun this time, no polymer. Again, I'm sure Wilson's KZ is superb, but I want 'weight'

Should I expect any problems with Les Baer or STI?

Also, I've already asked this before, but didn't have the chance to see the replies - from reading the threads on the forums, I've found that Wilson and Chipmmc power 10rd mags are the best? just making sure.

[rhino]

Also, I've already asked this before, but didn't have the chance to see the replies - from reading the threads on the forums, I've found that Wilson and Chipmmc power 10rd mags are the best? just making sure.

In my experience, yes.

[Duane Thomas]

Don't know if your passion for 4" barrels could extend out to 4-1/4" but I just finished testing the Para LTC (a Combat Commander by any other name) and I'm damn impressed. It was 100 percent reliable out-of-the-box (this is not something I can say about every 1911 that passes through my hands). Trigger pulls went 4-1/4 pounds out-of-the-box, even with the Series '80 pattern firing pin lock - which I greatly prefer to the Kimber "II-series" BTW. The grip safety disengaged for me even with my high thumb grip; the pad on the bottom of the Para grip safety seems considerably more built-up than on some other brands. Accuracy was, eh, okay, but then I've had my opinion on what constitutues really great accuracy from a 1911 informed - some might say distorted - by Les Baer and Wilson.

[Nik Habicht]

Once upon a time I owned one of Kimber's 4" 1911s biult on an officer's frame --- this was back in the series one days --- where I think they were basically using the Series 70 equivalent in safeties. The gun was nicely done up --- two tone, pretty grips, all sharp edges dehorned and smoothed over, decent night sights. It was capable of solid accuracy and it was reliable with every .45 load I fed it. I'd buy one again in a heartbeat.

My other two favorites in that size are the Sig P245 and the Glock 36.

[texasag93]

Kahr P40. Thinner and lighter than a 1911, and 7 rounds of .40. I love mine. TXAG

[PKS]

If I may interject some practical considerations to carry guns:

1. In the event that you need to produce your firearm in a real world self defense situation, and the police become aware of this, your gun will most likely be confiscated from you.

2. Often the stress of producing a firearm in a self defense situation can reduce your manual dexterity. Not having any controls other than a trigger (and mag release) is a plus.

3. Concealed carry, particulary with IWB or thunderwear, is hard on the finish of a gun, both from holster friction, and from sweat.

I think this favors a gun that is reliable, inexpensive, has minimal external controls, and can be easily replaced. My two carry guns, which I find meet the above criteria, are a Glock 30, and a Kahr MK40.

[Duane Thomas]

1. In the event that you need to produce your firearm in a real world self defense situation, and the police become aware of this, your gun will most likely be confiscated from you.

Depends on your definition of "confiscated." Will your gun spend several months in a police evidence room before the grand jury can be convened to free it? Sure. It's evidence in a homicide, and until you've been cleared of wrongdoing, the law has to have it. Will you get the gun back afterwards? Sure. Though admittedly this may vary from place to place, in Washington state where I reside that's certainly true.

2. Often the stress of producing a firearm in a self defense situation can reduce your manual dexterity. Not having any controls other than a trigger (and mag release) is a plus.

True as far as it goes, but the well-trained 1911 shooter will be gripping the gun in such a fashion it automatically depresses the thumb safety, so that's really a non-issue.

3. Concealed carry, particulary with IWB or thunderwear, is hard on the finish of a gun, both from holster friction, and from sweat.

Oh yeah. Carrying the gun daily in anything is going to wear its finish. I truly can't understand the people who freak over this. You use a tool, it picks up wear. Big whoop.

[EricW]

3. Concealed carry, particulary with IWB or thunderwear, is hard on the finish of a gun, both from holster friction, and from sweat.

Oh yeah. Carrying the gun daily in anything is going to wear its finish. I truly can't understand the people who freak over this. You use a tool, it picks up wear. Big whoop.

I'm going to start a Hall of Fame on my website for the most holster-worn guns on earth. My best friend's father's Colt Woodsman will win first prize.

Big whoop is right.

"Want a pretty gun? Cut a picture out of this here magazine and frame it. Then you won't have to worry about using *that* one." - Bill Cook (one sharp cookie)

[rhino]

On some other forums that are either more defense-related or more geared toward guns than shooting, I see a lot of "concern" over Kydex causing more wear on the finish than leather (although I don't buy it). I'm guessing that the people who worry about it the most don't even draw from the holster very often, if at all.

[Duane Thomas]

Many people, especially when they first contemplate carrying a gun, have what I consider an unreasonable concern over wear to its finish. And one of their big worries is the kydex holster's reputation for finish wear. A few months ago I was down on the floor at the gun shop where my girlfriend works and I'm the firearms instructor, when Cassie called me over to talk to a customer. The guy was curious about how a kydex holster wears a gun's finish because he was about to get his first concealed carry permit. Since my sweetie knew I'd been carrying a 1911 in a kydex holster for the past few years, she invited me over for Show & Tell.

When I took the gun out of the holster (carefully pointed in a safe direction, natch), the guy freaked. He went, "Oh, that's just totally unacceptable!" (And I'll admit, the gun does have some finish wear.) "I'm going for leather."

I told him, "In my experience, a kydex holster begins wearing a gun's finish faster than leather, but it swiftly gets to a certain point and then pretty much stops. The leather holster, on the other hand, is going to eventually get you to the exact same place, you're gonna have the same amount of finish wear - the kydex holster gets you there faster, but in the long term it's not any harder on the finish than leather. And leather's not any easier."

"Well, I want a holster that won't wear the gun at all. What about suede?"

"The thing about suede, or a holster with a suede lining, it's really hard on a gun's finish. You ever fire the gun and then holster it, the suede picks up crud and powder fouling that eventually starts acting just like sandpaper."

"But I love the way gun looks new."

"I guess it depends on how you view your carry gun," I said. "If you view it as an object of esthetic contemplation, then I guess it's important it always be immaculate. If you view it as a tool - and I do - you realize that you use a tool, it's going to pick up wear. Frankly, I kind of like the way a gun looks when it gets some finish wear - as long as I'm the guy who put it there. It looks....honest. Used. Real."

Anyway, this goes back and forth for awhile. Me patiently explaining the facts of life, him adamantly refusing to believe that a wear-free holster doesn't exist.

"Well, I don't want any finish wear at all," he said, for about the sixth time. And by this stage of the game, sports fans, the fabled Thomas patience, renowned in song and story, was wearing (pun intended) pretty thin. I was becoming, shall we say, just a wee bit tired of the broken record, and of trying to explain simple concepts to someone who flat refused to listen. But, somehow, I found the strength to carry on. <Cue theme from Rocky.>

"Doesn't exist." I said. "You carry the gun, it's going to pick up wear."

"Then I just won't carry it."

I have to admit I was amazed. "That's....certainly one way to make sure your carry gun never picks up any surface wear. Never carry it."

"I just love the way my gun looks now. I don't want its finish to get worn at all."

"Let me guess. This is your first gun, right?"

"Oh yeah! And it's a great gun."

"Have you fired it yet?"

"Well, I know I should, but that would...."

"Wear it, right. You know, you might consider taking a firearms training class. You're gonna be carrying a gun, it might be an idea to, like, actually know how to fire it. Accurately, even."

"Oh I'm totally interested in that. I want to get really good."

"You do realize that'll entail actually firing the gun?"

A look of abject torture affixed itself to his face. "But I just love...."

"Uh-huh. So, just out of curiousity, what gun do you have?" I figured this was going to be some multi-thousand dollar Kimber or something.

"A Steyr."

"Ah.....well, you certainly don't want to begin wearing all that beautiful black plastic."

"Exactly!"

He absolutely didn't realize I was joking. I think I saw his hair ruffle as the irony whizzed over his head. He never even felt the breeze.

[EricW]

It never ceases to amaze me. People buy $40,000 cars and drive them 100K, dent them, don't change the oil, then sell them for $10,000 three years later. Nary do they think twice.

The same schmuck walks into a gun store, buys a lousy $500 gun, then goes into convulsions if it so much as gets a single fingerprint on it.

[AikiDale]

You know, a good salesman would have picked up on this and sold him one for looks in nickle and a hard chrome carry piece....

[dajarrel]

To become part of this thread drift, I like the security of the Kydex, but find the leather holster to be a bit more comfortable for me. As far as wear goes, If you use it, the finish will wear. If you aren't happy with it, refinish it.

Anyway, on the gun.... Absolute dependability and ease of use are a must. I carry a Springfield mil-spec .45. After about 500 rounds or so, I felt as if it was broken in good and would eat a varied assortment of ball and HP rounds. But I think I would feel just as comfortable with a Glock in .40 or .45.

Like I said, Absolute Dependablity, is the key.

FWIW

dj

[infinity]

i go with a springfield 45! tried and tested!!! kydex or leather would do as long as it serves its purpose and not to mention...comfortability!!!

Infinity

[dirtypool40]

If I may interject some practicalconsiderations to carry guns: <= at least he didn't say TACTICAL, but we know he was thinking it

1. In the event that you need to produce your firearm in a real world self defense situation, and the police become aware of this, your gun will most likely be confiscated from you.

2. Often the stress of producing a firearm in a self defense situation can reduce your manual dexterity.  Not having any controls other than a trigger (and mag release) is a plus.

3. Concealed carry, particulary with IWB or thunderwear, is hard on the finish of a gun, both from holster friction, and from sweat.

I think this favors a gun that is reliable, inexpensive, has minimal external controls, and can be easily replaced.  My two carry guns, which I find meet the above criteria, are a Glock 30, and a Kahr MK40.

PKS's post got me wanting to write in, but then Duane covered most of it. Of course I was going to start accusing PKS of being something foul like a reader of tactical dogma in gun rags but then Duane is or was, well, how about I shut up.

I think I am well served by carrying the same platform I shoot 35k+ a year through, the 1911. To respond to the original thread; I have a Kimber and several Springfields. For my money the Springfield is more gun, and they suport the sport better. All needed tweaking, but then, that's half the fun and for a $1000 budget, you can get it done.

Train with what you are going to carry, or something that works the same way. PKS, I don't know you, but I bet under stress the 100k rounds through my high cap 1911 in competition serves me acceptably if I have to present my shorty Kimber.

You know, now that you mention it, in my last 1000 draws, I can't ever remember taking the safety off, it just was already where it needed to be when the sites aligned.