kevin c Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 This one ought to make Erik Warren happy. "No person is permitted to enter or move through a COF w/o the prior approval of a RO..." It sounds like this is aimed mainly at other squads sneaking on and walking through, but I just want to make sure who's allowed. Certainly the RO's, the competitor who just shot, and the squad members who have range duties, but the custom where I shoot is to let the on deck and in the hole shooters walk the course as it is being reset. This is understood and won't be a problem with local matches, but should I expect to have to ask the RO's permission at big away matches? Sorry, just want to make sure I don't blow vacation time, match fees, hotel and travel on a misunderstanding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 I started doing this this year. Before I send in my app I email the RM and ask if the stages are open when a squad is not on them. If he says yes I'll send in my money if he say no I won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sincityshooter Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 I'm pretty certain that this rule was made to keep squads off of stages where they don't belong. I would bet that under most circumstances walking stages early in the morning, during lunch breaks, and the day of registration would be acceptable. If I want to check out a stage that does not have a squad I always make it a point to ask the RO if it's alright for me to do so. There has never been a problem and I don't see it ever becoming a problem. If there's no RO there, the worst that they can do is tell you to leave the stage. This rule is not to hurt the shooters, but to help squads that are already shooting a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 I'm pretty certain that this rule was made to keep squads off of stages where they don't belong. Correct, but let me expand on this by stating that the only person who should be authorised to conduct a final "private" walkthrough, while another competitor is being scored, is the competitor who is next to shoot. This is common courtesy, and other competitors should not be crowding the guy who is about to go on the line, because everyone will get their chance in due course, according to the shooting order. Sadly though, there are some inconsiderate people who think they have the right to walkthrough while every other competitor is being scored, but this is extremely selfish and disruptive. However there's another aspect of this rule. We just don't want people conducting unsupervised walkthroughs, because we don't want them interfering with targets, especially by repeatedly activating movers. When a stage is closed for lunch, it's closed for lunch and, unless there's a compelling reason for an RO to allow a competitor to have free reign on a stage (and I can't think of a valid reason), then please be considerate to everyone else and keep off the gravel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 I like this rule since it would also keep people from other squads and spectators of the stage when a squad is there already - they did not have permission to be there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 A wonderful rule...if it gets enforced by the RO's. Might chap some folks butts to begin with, but as they have not gotten the message yet, slap them with this one. Maybe we should have an on-deck box built for all matches.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 BTW IMO this is a rule just to screw with the shooter. I cannot think of any reason to keep a shooter off stages on lunch breaks or at any other time when there is not a squad on the stage or if maintenance is being conducted. If the RM gives me permission to look at a stage under certain guidelines that's what I'll do. I'm not going to ask anyone else, because I have had problems. Studying stages and figuring them out is some of the rewarding fun of our sport. If you don't what people tampering with the props, targets, etc. Put in the matchbook and tell the consequences for messing with them. This and a couple other new rules seems to be the start screw with the shooter year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 When I work a large match, like Nationals or an Area Championship, the match organizers usually say that you can walk the stages, but don't fool with the activators, etc., when there is nobody around. Most people follow the rules, but some don't. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've seen a couple of guys setting and resetting an activator at lunch or after the stage is shut down for the day. At this year's Nationals, someone even shot some steel late one evening, obviously after everyone had left for the day. I don't know who, but I know it was painted and standing up when we left, and that each popper had about 3 hits the next morning. I'll usually ask people I see to stop playing with the props, but truthfully, it's not following the rules, and is technically grounds for a DQ. Believe me, if I'd caught someone shooting that steel, they'd have been gone. I don't think this rule was designed to make it hard on the shooters, but there must be some structure to the match, and some rule to back up putting restrictions on competitors and DQ'ing them for violating those restrictions. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 I really don't have a problem with the concept of this rule. I think it could have been written a little more clearly though. Does it apply during lunch breaks, before and after the official match start times each day, or how about someone walking the stage a couple of days before the match? Are you going to DQ someone in all of these instances? If you are going to be DQing for this infraction, you need to have a standardized time frame where this can occur so that anyone traveling to a USPSA event will know how to behave, rather than leaving it up to each match to set its own parameters. As the rule is now, it is being interpreted a number of ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 I like this rule, mostly because I'm tired of wannabes from other squads stepping on your feet when I and my squad are doing our (legal) stage walkthrough... Now, instead of quarreling, I just have to point out to the RO they're not from our squad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 I really don't have a problem with the concept of this rule. I think it could have been written a little more clearly though. Does it apply during lunch breaks, before and after the official match start times each day, or how about someone walking the stage a couple of days before the match? Are you going to DQ someone in all of these instances? What part of "No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire without the prior approval of a Range Officer assigned to that course of fire or the Range Master" is unclear to you? The rule does not quote "operating hours" because it applies for the duration of the match which, by the way: 6.6.3 A match, tournament or league will be deemed to have started on the first day that competitors (including those specified above) shoot for score and will be deemed to have ended when the results have been declared final by the Match Director. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 I really don't see this as a "screw the shooter" rule. Quite the opposite. I'd rather protect 90 than give an advantage to 10. If some competitors get to wander around stages for some considerable time and others don't we are permitting unfair competition. I confess to being a little amazed about how often I see people helping one or two people in a match because they want to be "fair". Fairness is something we are tasked with applying to ALL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 I really don't see this as a "screw the shooter" rule. Quite the opposite. I'd rather protect 90 than give an advantage to 10. Amen, Brother. This is why I detest the often bandied phrase "benefit of doubt", which some good people honestly think is doing the right thing for one guy, but it's potentially screwing everybody else. You must only award points which are actually earned, and no COF is the personal property of any individual. It's tough enough ensuring that all aspects of a COF present the same challenge to all competitors as it is, without having a handful of DIY rogues trampling all over the place and potentially affecting the future operation of the COF. I've never denied any competitor additional viewing time on a stage, provided he does so in my presence, and provided he doesn't interfere with the squad that's supposed to be there. This is also why I quickly grab my lunch and return to eat it on my stage, so that I'm there for any competitor who wants the extra zen time. You don't get to test drive a car unaccompanied, and the same applies in respect of test-driving a COF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri Burst Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 I also think this rule was made to try and stop what happened to me a few times at the NATs this year. It was my time to shoot and I was running through the COF as they were scoring the previous shooter. When I returned to the start position there was another shooter standing there or walking the COF. I said something to the shooter but 1-2-3 stages latter it happen again. Finally I asked someone with a little better people skills to say something to that person and the squad in general to stop doing that because I was about to blow up at them. This is NOT a rule to screw with any shooters. It is a rule to give the present squad and or shooter the chance to walk through the COF without some other squad/shooter getting in there way. And NOW that it is clearly stated there can be NO misunderstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 I would also ask how can it ever be fair when a squad arrives for a briefing and is given (say) a timed 10 minutes to view a stage but others competitors have has several minutes on top of this time to plan the stage. Consider the impact of that extra time on a Long Course worth (say) 140 points. I know for a certainty that I would have liked some extra time on some stages I've shot because I hadn't got a stage completely clear in my mind. Actually it can be much worse on a shotgun stage because of the extra time it takes to plan reloads. Perhaps as many as 19 reloads versus a couple on a handgun stage. I also get p*ssed at matches where you are given the same time for a Long Course as a Short Course and irrespective of the squad sizes at the match. But at the end of the day I want consistency for all shooters more than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 If the stage I'm running is between squads or is down for lunch, I don't have a problem with people coming up and walking through the setup provided they ask first and don't disturb anything (provided the MD agrees). If someone sees this as giving an undue advantage to those particular shooters, I see it as some folks who showed a little personal initiative. They made the effort to scope out the territory. Everyone is free to do the same. Once I have shooters present, it's a whole different ballgame. I try my best to ensure that once the initial walk-through period has expired and the stage is running, only the on-deck shooter is allowed to be on the stage during reset. This is just simple courtesy. Other shooters on the squad need to stay out of the way, and most do. Shooter's from other squads shouldn't even be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 I really don't have a problem with the concept of this rule. I think it could have been written a little more clearly though. Does it apply during lunch breaks, before and after the official match start times each day, or how about someone walking the stage a couple of days before the match? Are you going to DQ someone in all of these instances? What part of "No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire without the prior approval of a Range Officer assigned to that course of fire or the Range Master" is unclear to you? The rule does not quote "operating hours" because it applies for the duration of the match which, by the way: 6.6.3 A match, tournament or league will be deemed to have started on the first day that competitors (including those specified above) shoot for score and will be deemed to have ended when the results have been declared final by the Match Director. Like I said, the rule isn't as clear as it could be. Vince, you just added your interpretation to the rule. Nowhere in the rule does it say "it applies for the duration of the match" only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Like I said, the rule isn't as clear as it could be. Vince, you just added your interpretation to the rule. Nowhere in the rule does it say "it applies for the duration of the match" only. You seem to be the only person to have a problem understanding the validity of the rule. I merely explained after you queried the need for a "standardized time frame" that, in the absence of time parameters, the rule applies at all times. Many DQ rules also do not state a "standardized time frame" so, if I handle ammo inside a safety area a week after the match, do I still get DQ'd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Many DQ rules also do not state a "standardized time frame" so, if I handle ammo inside a safety area a week after the match, do I still get DQ'd? Good Questoin I think it should be that tehre is a standardized time reference applied to the rules. When is the match is over? When do the IPSC/USPSA specific rules cease to apply? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Good Questoin. I think it should be that tehre is a standardized time reference applied to the rules. When is the match is over? When do the IPSC/USPSA specific rules cease to apply? See Rule 6.6.3 (quoted on the previous page). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Seems that some are applying the rule to the "next squad" getting in the way of the current shooter, and some are applying the rule to walking through the stages when nobody is on them (lunch, or after the final shot of the day). I guess the rule appies to both circumstances above? Oh...I am with Jon Merrick & ima45dv8. I always ask if I can go look the stages over. Heck, I often leave home early to do so. I don't think I've ever been told NO. I am pretty sure I wouldn't want to come back to a match that wouldn't let me look the stage over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 The members may not be aware of this, but due to an occurrence at an Area 1 match, we now have a new term that has been added to the IPSC lexicon, "pre-match" (6.6.2). One would think that "pre-match" refers to something that happens before the official match, and 6.6.2 suggests that there is a distinction between the "pre-match" and the main match. 6.6.3 seems to indicated the complete opposite. It includes the "pre-match" in the official start time of a match, tournament, or league. If 8.7.5 is meant to include the official time frame of a match, it also includes the "pre-match". If we take the Area 1 match that resulted in 6.6.2, a match that had the ROs shooting the weekend before the main match, it would mean the stages are now off limits to the competitors for several days, and any competitor that enters or passes through a stage during those several days will be DQed. Imagine being DQed a week before the main match starts. Of course, with nobody around to monitor the fair and balance administration of 8.7.5 during the "pre-match" and the down time during the week before the main match we can't be certain that all of the competitors are being treated equally. If 8.7.5 applies until the final results are posted, there could be several hours from the time the last shot is fired in the match and when the final results are posted. A competitor is subject to a DQ during those several hours if he enters and passes through a stage. I'm beginning to think that Jon Merricks might be right. Vince's interpretation looks like the rule is out to screw with the shooters. If the rule was more narrow and clearer in its focus it would be a better rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 I guess the rule appies to both circumstances above? The rule applies at all times, because no time limits are stated. It applies to all persons, including members of the same squad who are being processed, because no exceptions are stated. As you know, each squad is given X minutes to do a general walkthrough, then the range is cleared and the RO processes each competitor individually. Unless the RO gives permission, nobody, including the next competitor on the line, is authorised to just wander down range. In other words, the default is "unless authorised, the stage is off limits". Having said that, any RO worth his salt would make it clear during his briefing that while one competitor is being scored, the next guy on the line, and only him, is permitted to make his final preparations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 I agree with what most have said. Here is the the thing, it's not a test drive it's just looking under the hood. I have spent 14 hours in one day just looking over the stages over for a match. I was never on a stage when a shooter or squad squad was on it unless I was helping out. At Georgia and other matches this year I helped paste targets for the RO's to give them more time to prepair to shoot. I take the matches I shoot very serious. So what does it hurt for me to look at the stages, nothing. If I mess with the props DQ me. But don't take the N from my FUN and leave me with FU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 One would think that "pre-match" refers to something that happens before the official match, and 6.6.2 suggests that there is a distinction between the "pre-match" and the main match. Yes, that might be the case, and it's the MD's call whether the "pre-match" scores are included in the overall match results. If the people shooting the "pre-match" shoot exactly the same stages, I suspect most MDs would allow the scores to be included in the overall match results. However if the "pre-match" is used for debugging stages, and changes to the stages are made as a result, then the MD probably won't allow the scores to be included. Simple really. 6.6.3 seems to indicated the complete opposite. It includes the "pre-match" in the official start time of a match, tournament, or league. Rule 6.6.3 does not conflict with Rule 6.6.2. If there is a "pre-match", the competition has officially commenced, and all rules apply, irrespective of whether or not the scores from the "pre-match" are included in the overall match results. If we take the Area 1 match that resulted in 6.6.2, a match that had the ROs shooting the weekend before the main match, it would mean the stages are now off limits to the competitors for several days, and any competitor that enters or passes through a stage during those several days will be DQed. Imagine being DQed a week before the main match starts. Perhaps we have a different philosophy. Personally, I don't think you have any right to interfere with stages, and potentially alter the COF, regardless of when the main match commences. Do you have a good reason why match officials should give you a special pass to do whatever you like on the stages, unsupervised, during the period between the "pre-match" and the main match? Of course, with nobody around to monitor the fair and balance administration of 8.7.5 during the "pre-match" and the down time during the week before the main match we can't be certain that all of the competitors are being treated equally. Interesting point. Are you therefore suggesting that the only stage inspection we should allow is the official squad walkthrough? Personally, I don't mind people having an extra look when the range is available, even during lunchtime, provided they ask me first, but now you've got me wondering whether I'm treating all competitors equally. If 8.7.5 applies until the final results are posted, there could be several hours from the time the last shot is fired in the match and when the final results are posted. A competitor is subject to a DQ during those several hours if he enters and passes through a stage. Yes, because until the results are declared final, a reshoot might be required, so all the stages are still "in play". I'm beginning to think that Jon Merricks might be right. Vince's interpretation looks like the rule is out to screw with the shooters. You're entitled to your opinion, but it would certainly carry more weight with me if you didn't continue to hide behind a veil of secrecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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