So you want to be an RO...

[ClutchUSMC]

They teach college courses online now every day. If I can take differential equations online then USPSA can teach an online RO course. It's not rocket surgery but since the guys who teach the course make a decent amount traveling around teaching how to be a timer stand I doubt that will happen.

[JayWord]

They teach college courses online now every day. If I can take differential equations online then USPSA can teach an online RO course. It's not rocket surgery but since the guys who teach the course make a decent amount traveling around teaching how to be a timer stand I doubt that will happen.

Sir,

I think you have the NROI staff confused with some other group. All USPSA Instructors are volunteers. We get paid nothing to come and teach. The only thing USPSA covers is our travel expenses at cost. The clubs have to put us up and take care of our meals.

One of the other posters made a comment about the range exercise being a waste of time in the Level 1 course. For experienced persons who have been running shooters correctly it is a bit simplistic, but still useful. (Range commands, I could tell you stories!) However, a large number of the students are pretty new and only when under the controlled exercise does issues like range commands and positioning show up. The other issue is scoring targets, you would not believe some of the nonsense some of the studetns have been exposed to at the club levels.

I guess I will take that USPSA GM online course next.

Jay Worden NROI-RMI

These comments are only mine and not offical USPSA policy.

[Flexmoney]

...but since the guys who teach the course make a decent amount traveling around teaching how to be a timer stand I doubt that will happen.

Wow. What an example. You have such bad info, no wonder NROI wants to teach the course in person now.

(good thread, otherwise)

[ClutchUSMC]

Thats what I get for opening my mouth. I've never shot many pistol only matches and I assumed the money for the classes went to the instructor.

FWIW I went back and looked at the last email I got about an RO class and it cost $60. Which is pretty reasonable until I think about the fact that you're actually charging me so that I can work as a volunteer. And provide income for both the club and USPSA. It makes about as much sense to me as the millions of dollars the NCAA generates in March based on the volunteer labor of 10 or so kids.

If you want to have the best Range Officers possible then you need to find a better way of training them. Why not an online course? Back that up by requiring them to work a level 2 or higher match and have the RM/CRO sign off on their performance afterwards? What's the process for getting someone's RO card revoked? I doubt it happens often if ever, yet we all know at least one guy that shouldn't run shooters.

At the end of the day this thread is about working 3gun matches, very few of which are under USPSA rules. If the NROI wants to teach 16 outlaw rule sets in its "Multigun" cert then we can talk. A few hours tacked on after a class isn't nearly enough to qualify someone to run a 3gun stage in my mind. But its better than anything else we have currently.

[ClutchUSMC]

...but since the guys who teach the course make a decent amount traveling around teaching how to be a timer stand I doubt that will happen.

Wow. What an example. You have such bad info, no wonder NROI wants to teach the course in person now.

(good thread, otherwise)

An example of what Kyle? Someone who has little interest in USPSA but loves 3gun? Yes, I was incorrect about the administrative policies of the NROI and I'm happy to admit it. However, what bearing would that have on my ability to correctly run a stage/shooter/match in the sport of 3gun?

[Flexmoney]

...but since the guys who teach the course make a decent amount traveling around teaching how to be a timer stand I doubt that will happen.

Wow. What an example. You have such bad info, no wonder NROI wants to teach the course in person now.

(good thread, otherwise)

An example of what Kyle? Someone who has little interest in USPSA but loves 3gun? Yes, I was incorrect about the administrative policies of the NROI and I'm happy to admit it. However, what bearing would that have on my ability to correctly run a stage/shooter/match in the sport of 3gun?

The bearing would be opperating off of hearsay and false assumptions.

[ClutchUSMC]

...but since the guys who teach the course make a decent amount traveling around teaching how to be a timer stand I doubt that will happen.

Wow. What an example. You have such bad info, no wonder NROI wants to teach the course in person now.

(good thread, otherwise)

An example of what Kyle? Someone who has little interest in USPSA but loves 3gun? Yes, I was incorrect about the administrative policies of the NROI and I'm happy to admit it. However, what bearing would that have on my ability to correctly run a stage/shooter/match in the sport of 3gun?

The bearing would be opperating off of hearsay and false assumptions.

Yep thats how I do things. Thats why I get asked to work the biggest matches in the country and am consistently told by shooters how good a job I do and how much they appreciate it.

Most of the time I just assume the shooters are honest, sleep in the truck, and let them run the stage themselves.

[Flexmoney]

I wasn't trying to get personal. I was trying to answer the qustion that you asked. You just heard from one of the NROI Instructors, where he said they see all kinds of crazy stuff when people come to classes. Perhaps that doesn't apply to you at all, but they can't set the calsses up for just one guy?

[Dave Gundry]

FWIW I went back and looked at the last email I got about an RO class and it cost $60. Which is pretty reasonable until I think about the fact that you're actually charging me so that I can work as a volunteer.

If you work majors, you of all folks should know how much money RO's put in to volunteer at matches - $60 for a 1 time class isn't bad at all compared to frying a few days of vacation and at least 3 days worth of meals and travel expenses to RO at a major, plus travel expenses, and your lodging might be covered...

[ClutchUSMC]

FWIW I went back and looked at the last email I got about an RO class and it cost $60. Which is pretty reasonable until I think about the fact that you're actually charging me so that I can work as a volunteer.

If you work majors, you of all folks should know how much money RO's put in to volunteer at matches - $60 for a 1 time class isn't bad at all compared to frying a few days of vacation and at least 3 days worth of meals and travel expenses to RO at a major, plus travel expenses, and your lodging might be covered...

Exactly my point. You're asking me to pay for the privilege of volunteering?

[Flexmoney]

FWIW I went back and looked at the last email I got about an RO class and it cost $60. Which is pretty reasonable until I think about the fact that you're actually charging me so that I can work as a volunteer.

If you work majors, you of all folks should know how much money RO's put in to volunteer at matches - $60 for a 1 time class isn't bad at all compared to frying a few days of vacation and at least 3 days worth of meals and travel expenses to RO at a major, plus travel expenses, and your lodging might be covered...

Exactly my point. You're asking me to pay for the privilege of volunteering?

Don't we all do that? At every level?

USPSA is not a for profit business venture, right?

[warpspeed]

I understand what Tyler is saying. Why should we have to pay to take a class that is for a volunteer position in a non-profit ? Especially when the on-line education seems to be a viable option. I guess I would have to say that the training of an RO is not a hands-off event. The rule book is black & white but the competitors like to run in the gray area and I don't think that can be effectively communicated via an internet connection.

As to the cost, if I understood Jay correctly, the fee goes to pay for the instructors travel expenses. That seem reasonable to me. I think it is better to have a small group of people teaching the basic RO class to keep it consistent and if that means they need to travel then so be it.

[frag316]

You guys are all talking past each other.

Clutch is referring specifically to 3-gun events not held under the purview of USPSA, so he might have a legitimate beef.

However, lots of us who HAVE paid to volunteer do so because we love the sport that much. If we didn't, we wouldn't spend the other thousands of dollars on gear and ammo to compete and practice and travel.

ROs for major matches don't get much in return for very long (and often uncomfortable) days. For Nationals, I think you get some mileage or travel, a shared room (extra if you want to stay alone), maybe some meals, and no match fee (maybe). For Area and Sectionals, you get a shared room, probably one meal (the one served at the range), and no match fee. You probably also get a shirt to differentiate you from the competitors.

At club matches, you MIGHT get a discount on your fee for the match (I've seen that once and was surprised), but that's about it.

For all of that, you put yourself in a position where you have to potentially make tough calls, many of which knock people out of contention for the match win, some of which could send them home, some of which could result in you having a gun pointed at you accidentally (happened to me once, almost twice), or having to burn a bunch more ammo doing a reshoot.

So, yes, we pay to have all of that happen so we can grow and continue to enjoy our sport.

Clutch--If you don't want to do that, then don't--no one's forcing you. But don't cop an attitude when you're told that's how it works in USPSA. Especially since USPSA produces more ROs than any other shooting organization and more consistently well-trained ROs than any other (yes, that includes 3-gun--I've seen tons of unsafe gun handling at outlaw matches).

[Stlhead]

So much Flavor Aid. Hard to pick a favorite.

[ClutchUSMC]

Why do you guys keep bringing up USPSA? Is this helping the discussion about how to produce better and more consistent 3gun ROs? USPSA has about as much influence in 3gun as my mother does.

We can bicker all day, but its not helping the problem just drifting the thread.

[ctay]

Why do you guys keep bringing up USPSA? Is this helping the discussion about how to produce better and more consistent 3gun ROs? USPSA has about as much influence in 3gun as my mother does.

Your mother has a 79 page 3gun rulebook?

[ClutchUSMC]

Way to contribute to the discussion, you sir have furthered the sport immensely.

FWIW Ive shot over 100 3 gun matches inthe last 3 years and a exactly 1 of those was held under USPSA rules. I wouldn't consider them the industry leader.

[ClutchUSMC]

And lets be real. USPSA trained the entire staff at nationals, ros, cros, rm, and md. And they let a guy walk away with a national title using illegal equipment.

Anyone want to tell me how that happened?

[sperman]

Why do you guys keep bringing up USPSA? Is this helping the discussion about how to produce better and more consistent 3gun ROs? USPSA has about as much influence in 3gun as my mother does.

We can bicker all day, but its not helping the problem just drifting the thread.

You are asking how to get better 3-Gun ROs. USPSA has the best RO training program here in the states. If you're going to start producing RO's for 3-Gun, where are you going to start? The IMG RO program, the 3GN RO program? They don't have one. Is the USPSA program perfect? No, but it's better than anything else that is out there.

[ClutchUSMC]

Why do you guys keep bringing up USPSA? Is this helping the discussion about how to produce better and more consistent 3gun ROs? USPSA has about as much influence in 3gun as my mother does.

We can bicker all day, but its not helping the problem just drifting the thread.

You are asking how to get better 3-Gun ROs. USPSA has the best RO training program here in the states. If you're going to start producing RO's for 3-Gun, where are you going to start? The IMG RO program, the 3GN RO program? They don't have one. Is the USPSA program perfect? No, but it's better than anything else that is out there.

Yes, and how many 3gunners are actually members of USPSA? Less than half would be my guess. So now they are paying $40 a year, to pay $60, to take a class, to take extra days off work, travel and volunteer. To bust their ass, usually in the heat, for what amounts to a match fee and maybe a tshirt.

It's not realistic to think someone is going to do that. And if they did, the USPSA certification isn't going to cover 99% of the rules, scoring, and procedures in the matches they will work.

On top of all that, 20 plus "trained" USPSA ROs/CROs/MDs/RMs missed a competitor using illegal equipment at the National Championship. An EOTech is pretty big and hard to miss, it wasn't as if he had a magazine a few millimeters too long. The Nationals being the 1 match with the most formal structure for range officers, chief range officers, etc and in the theory best and most experienced ones. That speaks pretty poorly for this "training" that you guys seem to think is going to create someone that has the ability run a stage at Ironman, Blue Ridge, or the Pro-Am. All 3 of those examples having very different rules, divisions, and scoring... none of which are taught or used by USPSA.

It seems to me you're asking for the 100 or so dollars and 2 days time to do nothing productive. I haven't, nor would I, waste my time on it. And I have yet to see a compelling reason why anyone would, if they wanted to become a 3gun RO. You can learn more from running the clipboard or actually shooting the match you want to officiate than the NROI is going to teach you about most major 3gun matches.

Edited July 25, 2013 by ClutchUSMC

[Bryan 45]

I'm with Tyler on this one. USPSA is inconsequential in the world of multi-gun. Every major match in the US with exception of the USPSA MG Nationals has formally rejected running their match under the USPSA's 729 page rule book.

How to better train ROs for Multi-gun? It's grass-roots baby. Guys like Tyler volunteer their time. Match directors put guys with less experience RO'ing with the guys that have more experience. It's not perfect, but I think a lot of why outlaw multi-gun has exploded is due to the fact that the shooter never knows what to expect. The key here is for all of us to be willing and interested in volunteering a little of our time.

[sperman]

I've heard you do a lot of complaining about how bad the RO's are, and shoot down suggestions for how to make it better, but I haven't heard you offer any anything other than "I want to do it online."

[ktm300]

If you want well trained consistent RO's in 3Gun create a single set of rules then create a training program to teach those rules. Then test the RO's to make sure they understand those rules. Other than that you will have to do a training before every match to try and make sure the RO's understand that matches special set of rules. Even then you will have a wide variety in the level of skills each RO has.

As to paying money to be able to work a match. I consider it a great learning experience every time I RO a major match. I never walk away from one without learning a valuable lesson or two. Saving the $100 - $250 match fee getting my hotel room paid for and getting fed are a nice bonus.

[ClutchUSMC]

How do you make it better?

1. Have a national organization that actually cares about 3gun. 3GN is getting there, and has their club series this year. Hopefully they will keep getting bigger and start training officials. However, since they have moved away from the Outlaw matches I don't know if they are the answer either.

For that matter just a governing body to certify ROs might be best. Then you don't have to worry about classifiers, matches, magazines, etc. You could show up at the match early, teach a class, certify ROs at no cost to them, let the match pay for it. And then you can advertise the match as having "certified" ROs. Do it correctly and its a selling point that no major match will want to do without in just a few years.

2. Treat your ROs better so that you actually have the option to pick and choose who works your match. For example, if you have a half a million dollar prize table you can give every one of your 24 or so ROs a prize worth $1000 and you're only cutting the prize table down for competitors by 5%. That would get a lot more people volunteering, and is it really unreasonable to reward the people that make your match happen?

3. The best competitors are often the most experienced ROs. When you talk to match sponsors ask them for ROs. I know if any of my sponsors asked me to work a match in exchange for everything they do for me I'd be more than happy to step up.

4. Train your ROs for your rules. First time working XXX match? No problem show up a day early and get the class. Teach them the rules, scoring, etc. Run them through some practice stages. Make sure everyone is on the same page.

5. Offer some sort of online instruction. Back it up with having a MD/RM/CRO ect, sign off on their performance at a major match. I have no idea how you determine the Cadre of people who can sign off initially, but I'd start with JJ, Mark, Gary Welborn, Joe Harris, Andy Horner, etc.

There are several ways I can think of to improve the current cadre of range officials currently working 3gun matches. Some are already in limited use, ie JJ already teaches an RO course for his match. I take no credit for regurgitating other peoples ideas.

Edited July 25, 2013 by ClutchUSMC

[ClutchUSMC]

If you want well trained consistent RO's in 3Gun create a single set of rules then create a training program to teach those rules. Then test the RO's to make sure they understand those rules. Other than that you will have to do a training before every match to try and make sure the RO's understand that matches special set of rules. Even then you will have a wide variety in the level of skills each RO has.

As to paying money to be able to work a match. I consider it a great learning experience every time I RO a major match. I never walk away from one without learning a valuable lesson or two. Saving the $100 - $250 match fee getting my hotel room paid for and getting fed are a nice bonus.

The match fee and the hotel are always less than I could have made if I spent the same number of hours working my real job. I think it's like that for most of us. I'm lucky and work from home with very flexible scheduling so I can usually shoot/ro/go to whatever matches I want. However, lots of guys don't have that luxury. Have a family to support, can't take extra days off work or they miss the next match, etc.

And honestly, when you have the timer in your hand at a major match isn't the time to be learning IMO.

Edited July 25, 2013 by ClutchUSMC