Stinky Taters Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 This has probably been discussed already, but after a long time with the revolver and a Beretta 92, I recently switched to a 1911. I was wondering what the proper technique/thumb placement would be. Also, shooting the revolver, I had a habit of putting my weak hand/support hand's index finger in front of the trigger guard. Someone told me this is improper for the 1911. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 Welcome to the forums. If you do a search on Grip you will get more answers and opinions than you thought you wanted, but the reading will be informative and entertaining. Many put their strong hand thumb on the safety and point their support thumb at the target along the slide. Some put a finger on the trigger guard but I suspect most do not. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Z Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 I had the same question when I first started shooting open. I couldn't find the dot quick enough. Somebody told me to try keeping my strong hand thumb on the safety. I tryed it. Every time I brought the gun up the dot was in the scope. No more hunting for it. I'm not saying that my way is right. It just works for me. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 There are many reasons to ride the strong hand thumb on top of the thumb safety on a 1911. One of the greatest is that it automatically (pun intended) flips the safety to the fire position as your hands meet. No worries of forgetting to activate the safety lever, or need for thousands of reps to make flipping the lever from safe to fire before you can be competent to carry and/or compete with a 1911. Placing the index finger around the front of the trigger was considered very smart about 30 years ago. These days it's realized it weakens the rest of the hand's grip, and the support hand index finger has a tendency to steer the gun in recoil, preventing consistent, predictable sight tracking. There are very, very few truly good shooters these days that use the index finger around the trigger guard technique. The only one I can think of, off the top of my head, is Jerry Barnhart, and even he teaches his students to put all their support hand fingers under the trigger guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri Burst Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 There is only one right way to shoot a 1911 and that is with the strong hand thumb, whether you are a righty or lefty and you have a ambi thumb safeties, on the top of the thumb safety lever. You may hear different opinions but they are ALL WRONG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 <Sigh!> I hate to agree with such a....definitive statement, but I can't not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmitz Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 Placing the index finger around the front of the trigger was considered very smart about 30 years ago. These days it's realized it weakens the rest of the hand's grip, and the support hand index finger has a tendency to steer the gun in recoil, preventing consistent, predictable sight tracking. There are very, very few truly good shooters these days that use the index finger around the trigger guard technique. The only one I can think of, off the top of my head, is Jerry Barnhart, and even he teaches his students to put all their support hand fingers under the trigger guard. Eric Grauffel as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri Burst Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 <Sigh!> I hate to agree with such a....definitive statement, but I can't. Don't understand the "but I can't" part. You can't agree?? Or you can't disagree??? I have know idea where all the people learned how to to shoot a 1911 without there thumb on top of the safety but they learned wrong. That is just a simple fact. Now as far as my statement being very definitive well yes it is. When there is a clearly defined right and wrong there leave no grey area. Now everyone can shoot any gun any way they want but that does not make it the right way to handle and shoot it. The simple fact is IF your thumb is ON TOP of the safety, on a 1911, the safety is in the off position and it is ready to fire. If you have your thumb OFF the top of the safety then the safety is ON. Eer that is if you know how to properly handle a 1911. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinky Taters Posted October 9, 2004 Author Share Posted October 9, 2004 Tri Burst In reference to where people learn to shoot without their thumb on top of the safety. Back in the 50s, when I was an early teen, my uncle took me to an indoor range to shoot his military govt. model, Colt .45 ACP, he had just gotten through the NRA for $15. He shot alot of slow fire revolver and I can still see his thumb sticking out away from the gun. He also taught my cousin to shoot that way.... That was the 'kick start' for my never ending pleasure in firearms. 50 years later, I'm going full circle and back to the .45, I long ago abandoned. That support hand index finger placement might be tuff to over come. Thanks for the info. men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyro Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 another point about placing the thumb on top of the safety that i didn't see covered here is that it not only provides a comfortable rest for the thumb but it also keeps the safety in the fire position while shooting. IF the thumb is resting UNDER the safety, you run the risk of accidentally bumping the safety on while shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 In your search for a neutral grip, you may wish to try thumb high, but OFF the safety. Putting pressure on the safety will affect how the gun tracks. It is up to you to decide if that is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri Burst Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 Tri BurstBack in the 50s, when I was an early teen, my uncle took me to an indoor range to shoot his military govt. model, Colt .45 ACP, he had just gotten through the NRA for $15. He shot alot of slow fire revolver and I can still see his thumb sticking out away from the gun. Thanks for the info. men. Your right and so was your uncle when shooting a revolver. The recoil shield on a revolver can do some major damage to your thumb from the recoil if you have it tight to the side of the frame and depending on how long your thumb is and the caliber/load you are shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Don't understand the "but I can't" part.You can't agree?? Or you can't disagree??? Oops. I meant to say "can't not." Sorry. I'll change the previous post. I agree with what you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 In the last 10 years, I've seen quite a few people who are new to 1911s have trouble with the thumb safety. Many of them found the thumb safety "on" when they did not expect it, and had no idea why it was happening. A 30-second pointer on riding the thumb safety with the thumb cured the problem and prevented others. It's definitely the way to go. I also think "Stinky Taters" is now in the running for the best userid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Hi there. finally registered after a few weeks of "lurking". Thanks - your posts got me fired up to finally get involved in IPSC. I've been shooting for years - but no "action" shooting sports and hope to become proficient at shooting fast paced. I'm waiting for BE's book (on its way!). Meanwhile I'm not shooting and read a heap of the posts to avoid reinforcing my bad habits (which I'm sure are plenty). Enough history. Please excuse what is the question of an illinformed. I always rode the thumb safety (needed a thumb guard behind the safety because if my grip) and felt that it helped recoil control - and have seen this recommended in many different places. In my wanderings about the forum I saw an in depth discussion about "keeping the thumbs off the gun". Does this mean the "frame" as opposed to elsewhere, or the weak hand only (although "thumbs" seems to imply both strong and weak hand)? Duane, I think recommended "hyperextending the thumbs outwards" and another user said it was as though his thumps were amputated at the base! Benos said that thumbs on the gun are (loosely from recollection) "a loser". I've seen this discussion elsewhere (trying to avoid the title of "Newbie"). But they aren't helping me much! I'm missing something here. Please help me out whilst I wait for the snail mail to South Africa... Wim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 I think the idea is to 1) keep your thumbs away from the slide to prevent malfunctions; and 2) avoid applying lateral pressure to the frame with your thumbs, because it will be inconsistent and affect your accuracy. Welcome to IPSC! It's good to have another good guy join us from your country, which as you may know has a very rich tradition in IPSC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Rhino nailed it. And, welcome. There are some pictures around here of my grip with the Glock. Not a 1911 with a thumb safety, but my grip stays the same when I shoot the 1911. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Duane, I think recommended "hyperextending the thumbs outwards" "Wrist hyperextended forward," actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Thanks for the help guys. I've found more threads on the forum that helped too. Seems most everyone suggests keeping thumbs off "the frame" when referring to "the gun". What confused me was this thread http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ts+to+the+right . Duane, this was your comment: "What I found really helpful, when I realized thumb pressure on the gun was pushing my shots over to the right, was to really exaggerate the outward flexion of my thumbs. In other words, hyper-extend the thumbs out to the side so they don't touch the side of the gun at all". I now understand what it really means - "the side of the gun" was the key there . Duane, your posts elsewhere cleared it up for me. Thanks for the help and the welcome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Yer welcome. In other words, hyper-extend the thumbs out to the side so they don't touch the side of the gun at all". Ah. I did say that, didn't I. Forgot all about that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 I know this forum is primarily IPSC style shooters but in 1957 the Army taught to take the safety off with the right thumb then trap the right thumb with the left thumb on the grip. The NRA currently shows this method in their book on basic pistol shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri Burst Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 That would be a accepted way to shoot a real government model with the small thumb safety. I to would find it hard to keep my thumb on the safety with the stock government model style thumb safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pact-Man Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Oh PLEASE quit preaching this thumb high nonsense as THE grip. Some may use it well, but that doesn't make it right for everyone. I could get really fired up about this, but suffice it to say that other methods of gripping a handgun work quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri Burst Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Well I disagree when it comes to the 1911 or 2011 with anything other than a stock government model thumb safety. Everyone has there opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 I'm sure there are people who can point shoot from that old school FBI crouch too, but that's not a good reason to recommend it to people who wish to improve the results of their shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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