Getting DQ'd

[Unleashed]

I want to start out with a disclaimer on this post: It is not my intent to place blame, nor flame anyone with the short story I am about to tell. This post is meant to be educational for the shooters who may not have a great deal of experience in major matches, a category I fall into! Though, I am learning quickly.

I attended the '04 Nationals this year and was having a great time, shooting one of my best matches. Before this match, I had only attended a few other large matches. During a stage that required us to go prone, I was stopped and told that I had swept myself. The RO explained that I was good throughout the movement of going prone, but that the sweeping occured when I put my hand down to re-adjust my position (I had gone prone a little short of the intended port). When I say adjust my position what I mean is that after getting a full grip on the presented weapon I removed my weak hand from the grip and placed it on the ground. I then lifted my upper body with that hand and pushed forward about 8". After that action was complete, I pushed the gun back out and re-gripped. OK, that is the general situation......

After the RO called for the RM to finalized the DQ, I asked for clarification (up to this point he only stated that I had swept my self). He proceeded to tell me that when I had put my weak hand down, I put it in front of the muzzle. After a short time of processing this information, I explained that putting my weak hand in front of the muzzle with my strong arm fully extended was next to impossible (I really have to try hard to do this!!) due to the fact that my arms are the same length and my pistol extends about 4" past my extended hand. Well, the RM showed up and the RO described the actions to him. I once again described the difficulty in such a movement......and this is where a "range lawyer" would have come in handy! The RO then said, "well, it was actually when you went to regrip the pistol". These are two different actions! And once again, this is another difficult move to pull off. Once I had adjusted my position, I pushed the pistol out with my strong hand and then re-gripped with my weak hand. The pistol was once again extended at arm's length before I finalized my grip. Well, when all was said and done, I packed my bag and left. I never thought to bring up the fact that the story had changed nor did the RM think anything of it. I was so "thrown-off" by the whole situtation that I didn't think to mention it. After talking to some of the experienced shooters at the match, I was told that the mere fact of two different scenarios would have been grounds for me to continue the match. I was also told that even though safety violations aren't allowed to be arbitrated, they were at Area 4 this year and that pretty much opens the door. Again, I am not very experienced with these situtations but that is the exact reason I bring it to this forum. I hope that this will help someone in the future when faced with a situation like this. I know I didn't put my hand in front of my gun at any time....I work with weapons as part of my job and have to do some pretty funky things while carrying them loaded. I would know if I ever crossed the business end of one and I also have video proof of this entire thing!

I hope this will help others in the future. It is unforturnate that alot of these situations come down to an "us VS. them".....especially when they seem to win most of the time!

If anyone has any further questions regarding this incident feel free to ask...it was a first for me, but I learned alot!

[Paradox]

Posting the video might help

[Vince Pinto]

After a short time of processing this information, I explained that putting my weak hand in front of the muzzle with my strong arm fully extended was next to impossible (I really have to try hard to do this!!) due to the fact that my arms are the same length and my pistol extends about 4" past my extended hand.

Once I had adjusted my position, I pushed the pistol out with my strong hand and then re-gripped with my weak hand.  The pistol was once again extended at arm's length before I finalized my grip.

It seems to me that your two comments above are conflicting. In your first comment, you say your strong arm was fully extended, but in the second comment you say you pushed your strong arm out, which means it wasn't extended. Is it possible that you swept your weak hand while pushing forward with your strong hand?

I was also told that even though safety violations aren't allowed to be arbitrated, they were at Area 4 this year and that pretty much opens the door.

You can arbitrate any Match DQ, but you cannot dispute the events as described by the RO. At best, you can argue that your actions were not unsafe, but you'd be wasting your time and money trying to convince an Arbitration Committee that sweeping yourself after the start signal with a loaded gun was not unsafe.

Sadly I've had to DQ quite a few competitors in my time, and it's not unusual for them to honestly believe it was not justified, but this is often because their focus was on the targets, while my focus was on them and their gun.

Anyway, I'm truly sorry to learn of your match DQ, especially since you don't think you deserved it, but all I can do is hope you will put the matter behind you and move onwards and upwards.

[Unleashed]

It seems to me that your two comments above are conflicting. In your first comment, you say your strong arm was fully extended, but in the second comment you say you pushed your strong arm out, which means it wasn't extended. Is it possible that you swept your weak hand while pushing forward with your strong hand?

Actually the statements are not conflicting as they are describing two different instances. The first one states that my arm was extended in my initial prone position. The second statement describes me pushing the pistol forward with my strong hand. I understand where you can see the confliction there. In the process of adjusting forward (sliding my body closer to the port), my strong arm elbow stayed in place necessitating my re-extention of the pistol. This was done with my weak hand staying in place, just as it would when initially entering the prone position. After I extended the pistol out and the right side of my body was in place, I re-established my grip on the pistol. If I was to put my weak hand on the gun before I had my strong arm extended, I would fall on my face!

I can understand how you would gather that I am bitter about this entire ordeal, and I would be lying if I said I wasn't. However, that is not the intent of the post. I would simply like to educate other shooters about this type of situation so they are not as ill prepared as I was during the ensuing conversation with the RO and RM. The simple fact that the RO changed his story lends credit to the fallibility of such a call.

[jhgtyre]

I can understand how you would gather that I am bitter about this entire ordeal, and I would be lying if I said I wasn't. However, that is not the intent of the post. I would simply like to educate other shooters about this type of situation so they are not as ill prepared as I was during the ensuing conversation with the RO and RM. The simple fact that the RO changed his story lends credit to the fallibility of such a call.

Since we are only getting your side of this story I don't think you are going to get much vindication here. I understand your bitterness, it really bites to get DQ'd, but I don't think that there is much in the way of productive conversation here.

-ld

[Neil Beverley]

An interesting case and thank you, Unleashed, for sharing it with us.

If I may add to the discussion in the spirit of what is intended, and by no means making any specific claims about this case, I would like to add some of my observations formed over many years.

I wholeheatedly endorse Vince's statement that often competitors will completely disbelieve that they committed the action described to them.

There is another side to it. I'm convinced that in many cases the RO absolutely sees the incident but then quotes the circumstances incorrectly. I've known perfectly sound calls from an RO be overturned at arbitration because the RO writes it down incorrectly.

In the first few seconds following a DQ the RO's mind is often buzzing. There are some ROs who cope with events very well indeed but I've known ROs who have been qualified and working for say 3 years and never had to deal with a DQ. Then BANG and everything kicks in.

I have a number of friends who are police firearms instructors and for many years I have been helping as a civvy on a number of courses, not on the range but on "excercises". One police force has employed a FATS simulator to create scenarios of various firearms incidents. They started to run specialised courses for senior police officers and the judiciary. With a FATS simulator the "students" react, including shooting if they think it appropriate, to the events on the screen which is played close to real life scale. Those on the courses would take the role of a serving "on duty" LEO. Others would become bystander witnesses to what happens.

During the course, under course manufactured stress, and following a played out incident the participants were "interviewed" to determine what they saw. The findings were that mostly they could indentify that the shooting (or other response) was usually justified but often the facts were distorted because of stress.

Some guys couldn't even properly remember how many shots they had fired. They would remember what happened but not always in the correct order.

However, they found if they took only brief statements immediately after the incident followed by a fuller debrief the next day the accuracy of the statements significantly increased.

I haven't been involved with this particular police force for some time and so I don't know if they have continued with these specialised courses but there was good evidence that they had an impact. I'm sure there are many LEOs on this forum far more qualified than I to comment much more on this.

Finally I would just add that the courses I described above were brought about partly as a result of a police officer ending up in court following the death of a rioter. The LEO had shot him with a batton (riot control) round. The original statement of the LEO had been that the rioter had been in a yellow top whereas he had in fact been wearing a blue top and the LEO also believed the rioter had been much closer to him than in reality. The court was highly suspicious of the incorrect evidence. It was a difficult time for the LEO. Fortunately he was eventually cleared because there were other independent witnesses who were able to substantiate that the actual events were such that the LEO had been justified in his actions. There then followed an investigation as to why the LEO had got his facts wrong and the new courses evolved.

I hope you find this story of some interest. I believe it has some relevance to our sport. When there is an incident things happend VERY quickly and decisions are mostly split seconds ones.

[Garfield]

I wholeheatedly endorse Vince's statement that often competitors will completely disbelieve that they committed the action described to them.

I agree to that as well.

I see it happen all the time.

Statements like "it's impossible I have done this or that, I would never do that".

Fact is, you do.

I RO more than I shoot lately, but when two weeks ago I shot a major (pre-)match here in NL the RO came up to me after a stage and said that I had been very close to a 90-degrees violation my first reaction (to myself, not to the RO) too was "I would never do that". But from my experience as an RO I *know* that shooters tend to overestimate their skills. And now I noticed that even I ( ) overestimated my own skills !

I have written this not to say that in the case discussed here the shooter for sure sweeped himself, but I just want to endorse Vince's statement too.

And one more thing: RO's generally try to avoid DQ-ing someone, because it's not a pleasure to (have to) do, not for the shooter, but also not for the RO. So most RO's will be really sure of themselves when they shout "stop".

[Mistral404]

I was on a squad at nationals where a squad member wad DQd while prone. I was watching the shooter because we were in the same class but he was much better than me. I was trying to learn from him.

Personally, I did not see the DQd as described by the RO. In fact it seemed a little odd at the time. It was a very strange call. The sweeping was not very apparent to me and I was watching fairly closely.

I will say that our squad member handled it with grace and dignity at the time.

Actually there were more potential DQ at the snake pit and the ROs were pretty generous there.

[davidwiz]

I was an RO on the stage in question (Stage 20). Another person was running the timer and clipboard. I was sitting in a chair about 15' feet away. Myself and other spectators clearly saw the competitor sweep himself. He went prone and then when he crawled/moved forward, the muzzle sweep the competitor's weak hand.

The other competitor who swept himself on Stage 20 did so in almost the exact same manner.

There were maybe about a dozen others who came very close to sweeping themselves. When going prone, instead of moving their weak hand parallel to the gun, they would plant their left arm/hand at an angle to their body, instead of in line with it. If their weak hand had been just a little bit further forward, they would have swept themselves.

-David

[Unleashed]

Myself and other spectators clearly saw the competitor sweep himself. He went prone and then when he crawled/moved forward, the muzzle sweep the competitor's weak hand.

David,

I appreciate you posting a response! I believe, as well as the rest of the "spectators" that you refer to, that you didn't see anything from your perspective and your post gives detail. When you said "I saw it", you didn't know what you saw and waited for the RO with the timer to try and explain. I repeated my moevements that day several times trying to figure out what you all thought you saw. When I regrip the pistol, my fingers come close to the end of the muzzle, but they can't cross it without a serious and apparent strain! I'm sorry, but even the RO with the timer changed his story!

As I said at the beginning, this post was not meant as a flame war and I am not trying to "vindicate" myself. Though, as several of you are quickly pointing out, even if the RO is wrong, you're still going home unless you know what action you, as a shooter, can take. The RO's are not always going to make the right call. If they did, they could put NFL Refs out of work!

Furthermore, I truly understand the effects of adrenaline on the human condition and I have seen its downside many times. However, shooting a stage is not enough to get me "loopy" anymore!

I would also seriously question the statement that RO's try to "avoid" DQ's.

[TRNinTX]

I would also seriously question the statement that RO's try to "avoid" DQ's.

Unleashed,

I don't how many matches you have served as an RO, but I can guarantee you that DQ's are no fun for anyone involved. I run a local match and have RO'ed at several Area and State matches. I have been involved in DQ's at all levels. It doesn't make you feel any better to send the guy home who has invested $15 and an hour drive than it does to send someone home that has major expenses invested in hotels, transportation and major match fees.

I believe some of the more experienced ROs here will back that statement up. Yes, mistakes are sometimes made, most of the time erring on the side of the shooter. But if someone shoots themself because an RO did not call what he believed was an obvious violation, then everyone loses.

[jhgtyre]

I appreciate you posting a response! I believe, as well as the rest of the "spectators" that you refer to, that you didn't see anything from your perspective and your post gives detail. When you said "I saw it", you didn't know what you saw and waited for the RO with the timer to try and explain.

What purpose do these statements serve? When you say "I believe" you are stating that you don't have facts to back up your emotional response to the situation. You seem pretty quick to dismiss the comments of someone who saw the event. Let it go.

-ld

[Stratochief]

Furthermore, I truly understand the effects of adrenaline on the human condition and I have seen its downside many times.  However, shooting a stage is not enough to get me "loopy" anymore!

I would also seriously question the statement that RO's try to "avoid" DQ's.

You'd be surpised what you don't "see" when your adreanaline is pumping. Accept the fact that you got DQ'd and move on. We all get DQ'd at one time or another. I've been DQ'd and yes, it hurts for a couple of hours, but you just have to laugh about it and move on.

When the adrenaline is flowing and after the fact, what you think you did is sometimes different that what you actually did.

[fullautodave]

This ( '04 Nationals ) was my first major USPSA match and I admit I went into it with a "fear" of being DQ'd because of all the stories I had heard about the RO vs. us mentality that does or did exist in USPSA. And after going to the shooters meeting and listening to a GUY WITH A DRESS ON tell us how to be safe, I was beginning to wonder.

However, and I know this is no comfort to the people that did get DQ'd, I thought things went pretty well considering there were some 180 traps and some real good places to sweep yourself. I actually seen one guy get DQ'd and he had done nothing unsafe but placed his weapon ( empty ) on a table before getting the range command to.

I think for 563 shooters and no more than 6 (?) to get DQ'd and no arbitration that says something. This don't mean I think Unleashed was treated right or wrong, I wasn't there, but something has changed or all those other stories were just BS.

Dave

[Unleashed]

I will say for the third and final time that I am not posting this issue to"proclaim" my innocence! I don't care who believes whether or not I really did put my hand in front of my pistol. As fullautodave pointed out, there are alot of stories out there about major matches and the vigilance of the RO's when it comes to safety. Until last year, I had no idea that stages would be designed to "trap" shooters into commiting a safety violation. After Area 4, I realized that this did indeed happen at large matches. Why stages are designed that way is a two sided answer for another discussion. My intent is to educate other shooters about the calls an RO may make and how to live with the calls, or how to dispute them. Had I disputed my situation, I would have still been in the match. Due to my ingnorance I didn't get to complete the match. I felt it important to describe my case in full and to defend my position on the actual events so that the real issue would be the questionable call, not whether or not I was just whining about being DQ'd.

I can see that this discussion can not be constructive and that there are people out there that take offense to such criticisms about Rang Officers. Nobody is infallible, but the only statements I hear from others that have been RO's is that they can't be wrong, disproved or judged! I have been an RO at many matches, including three-gun, I know the mentality that an RO has, as well as their responsibility. I at least hope there are a few shooters out there who got something from this whole mess.

[Steve Moneypenny]

If it's on video then you know the truth.... did you sweep yourself.

If you had it on video, why didn't you show the RO? or the RM?

Steve

[Stratochief]

Last I heard, video is not allowed for an arbitration.

[Vince Pinto]

My intent is to educate other shooters about the calls an RO may make and how to live with the calls, or how to dispute them.  Had I disputed my situation, I would have still been in the match..

Unfortunately we'll never know, because you didn't make an appeal to arbitration as provided for in the rulebook, a document everybody should become familiar with prior to attending a major match.

Topic closed.