Wearing Concealment or not

[BillD]

I can't find in the rule book where is states that concealment must be worn.

It does say this:

"All equipment used in Defensive Pistol matches must meet the following simple guidelines: equipment must be practical for self-defense use, concealable, suitable for all-day continuous wear, and must be worn in a manner that would be appropriate for all-day continuous wear. The match director will be REQUIRED to disallow any equipment that does not meet these simple criteria. If you wouldn't carry it to defend yourself, you can't shoot or use it in Defensive Pistol competition.

If you are caught using equipment that is not in the guidelines set forth, not in the spirit of Defensive Pistol “PURPOSE”, and the Match Director is convinced you did so to gain competitive advantage, you will be disqualified from the entire match."

However, it is my belief that unless you are starting a stage with your gun out of your holster, you should wear concealment. Some folks say it is just too hot to wear it. I say cowboy up and wear a vest for 30 seconds at a time maybe 7 times in one day. I was being told the difference in a draw time from concealment and without as being less than .2.

For my matches, it will be 3 seconds for the first infraction and then a FTDR every stage after that.

What say you all? Am I being a Nazi or does the spirit of IDPA demand concealment?

Bill

[uscbigdawg]

I think in the spirit of IDPA you should always draw from concealment.

I've seen our local IDPA guys sweatin' something fierce in the Sacramento summers, and hate to think they're wearing a jacket or the photographer's vest all day. But then too, I'm with you. Take the vest off between stages (and take the gun off for that matter) and just work duties until the next stage.

I see nothing wrong with that.

The .2 difference in draw times is a bit optimistic though. I think having to toss a vest out, 'causes a bit more of a time hit than that, but admittedly have never done the comparisons. I draw from baggy jeans (as Flavor Flav yells, "YEEEAH BOOOYYYEEE)! (Just kidding...most of the time).

Rich

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Easiest way to not look like a PITA is make it part of the course of fire description.

"Drawing from concealment, engage T1 with.........."

Regards,

[Mark Perez]

I can't find in the rule book where is states that concealment must be worn.

It does say this:

"All equipment used in Defensive Pistol matches must meet the following simple guidelines: equipment must be practical for self-defense use, concealable, suitable for all-day continuous wear, and must be worn in a manner that would be appropriate for all-day continuous wear. The match director will be REQUIRED to disallow any equipment that does not meet these simple criteria. If you wouldn't carry it to defend yourself, you can't shoot or use it in Defensive Pistol competition.

[cut]

However, it is my belief that unless you are starting a stage with your gun out of your holster, you should wear concealment. Some folks say it is just too hot to wear it. I say cowboy up and wear a vest for 30 seconds at a time maybe 7 times in one day. I was being told the difference in a draw time from concealment and without as being less than .2.

For my matches, it will be 3 seconds for the first infraction and then a FTDR every stage after that.

What say you all? Am I being a Nazi or does the spirit of IDPA demand concealment?

Bill

from the Course of fire section:

Courses of Fire:

Courses of fire must either simulate a potential real life self-defense scenario or test shooting and gun handling skills that would be necessary in a real life self-defense scenario.  The maximum number of shots required for any string of fire is 18.  The majority of shots fired in a Defensive Pistol match will be under 15yds and many stages will start with your equipment concealed.  Precision close range shooting on the move and at moving targets is also to be encouraged.  Every effort will be made to keep all courses six (6) shot revolver neutral.  Emphasis will not be placed on physical ability, but rather on shooting and gun handling skills. A comprehensive Defensive Pistol Course of Fire book is supplied to all clubs and is available for a nominal fee to the general membership.

Clubs may use any of the matches in the Defensive Pistol Course of Fire book for their monthly match.  These approved courses of fire have been designed to test the basic elements of Defensive Pistol shooting.  Local match directors are free to add NON-THREAT targets, HARD/SOFT cover, specify ‘Concealed Carry’ start, or shoot the ‘Scenario’ courses in low light.  Clubs may design their own courses of fire, but any course of fire must have a realistic scenario as its central theme, and it must meet the course criteria as set forth in the Defensive Pistol Rule and Course books (see ‘Course Design Rationale’ in the rule book).

It reads to me that concealment is at the discretion of the MD/stage designer.

As I have mentioned before , we operate on seasonal concealment .Summers are optional - fall and winter mandatory.

The current 'tactical' vest fashions are made of heavy fabric that no one in their right mind would wear on the street .

Especaily when it's 105 degrees in the morning.

The light weight vest are to flimsy for getting a decent draw w/o some kind of reinforcement.

Easy to talk of "cowboy-up" , until you get here ( Phoenix ).

Even our real cowboys don't wear vests.

[Ron Ankeny]

I think Mark pretty well nailed it. I personally believe IDPA should be shot from concelament. However, if the majority of the shooters and MD want to shoot without concealment, so be it, I'll play and enjoy the change. If you are the MD and/or course designer feel free to require concealment. If you are a competitor and the course of fire allows the choice, do what you feel appropriate. It's really pretty simple.

[geezer-lock]

If there was a requirement for concealment garments we would call it the ”International Concealed Pistol Association”.

There are states that require open carry. In Texas, the law is specified as a “concealed handgun license” and the law states further: “The weapon can't be visible, and its presence can't be discernible through ordinary observation.” That is sort of a “no print” provision that often gets folks in trouble.

I waive concealment for matches during June, July and August. No complaints from anyone about that. If you want to wear something that's fine with me.

geezer

[Mark Perez]

What say you all? Am I being a Nazi or does the spirit of IDPA demand concealment?

Bill

Geezer lock reminds me of one more thing :

If concealment is required , would you allow those 'sporting' vests that are a majority of mesh fabric ?

or would they have to be totally concealed?

Mark

[BillD]

We currently allow the mesh vests. The object is you have to move a concealment garment out of the way to draw.

And at 98 degrees and 96% humidity, I can say cowboy up all I want.

Just because we don't live in the desert doesn't mean it doesn't get hot. And you would actually be wearing the vest for a total of 5 minutes spread over 7 or so different times.

[Mark Perez]

Then , we shall remain at odds .

Our matches are supposed to be fun - not an endurance event.

UTD,

Mark

[rhino]

Of course, it hasn't been over 90F in Indiana since 2003.

I think there should be a variety of how the stage is started, much as I believe there should be variety in the way courses of fire are designed.

There are enough people (a growing number, actually) who carry openly at least part of the time. I am one of them. To discount that someone may be armed openly is contrary to the facts. When I carry at home (100% of the time), it's almost always without any sort of concealment. When I'm out and about, I carry openly whenever I believe it is prudent to do so.

I say let the designer of the course of fire specify (while in compliance with local laws) and then everyone shoots it the way the description reads.

[Three Glock Mike]

Here in Wisconsin we have some overly zealous DA's who have threatened to charge competitors with CCW infractions because we do not have concealed carry.

To my knowledge all four of our clubs are "Concealment Optional."

I shot at the MidWest Regional last weekend, it was in Illinois where the gun laws seem much more restrictive, and the entire match was from concealment.

I personally try to shoot the entire match from concealment 1 or 2 times a year just to keep my skill level up, and I usually find that I am just as fast if wearing the right garment.

[AikiDale]

Obviously this will vary with the jurisdiction. Kentucky for example is an open carry State with a concealed carry permit. If you want the element of surprise you have to pay the State. If you are willing to put up with the ladies screaming "He's got a gun!" at the mall you can go without.

"The current 'tactical' vest fashions are made of heavy fabric that no one in their right mind would wear on the street .

Especaily when it's 105 degrees in the morning.

The light weight vest are to flimsy for getting a decent draw w/o some kind of reinforcement.

Easy to talk of "cowboy-up" , until you get here ( Phoenix ).

Even our real cowboys don't wear vests. "

Check out Matt Burkett's Volume 5 IDPA DVD. They mention the 104 degrees in the outtakes....and Matt is wearing a tactically fashionably correct 5.11 vest

[Mark Perez]

from the LGB:

IDPA SAFETY OFFICER TRAINING GUIDELINES

What should I cover with each new group that comes to my COF?

3.  Begin concealed or open

[Duane Thomas]

The .2 difference in draw times is a bit optimistic though. I think having to toss a vest out, 'causes a bit more of a time hit than that, but admittedly have never done the comparisons.

Honestly, it depends on the shooter's skill level. If you're the sort of shooter who can a sub-second open draw from both an IPSC race rig and his carry holster, there's no reason that throwing a concealment garment over the holster should add immense amounts of time to the draw.

In another thread, I mention how, about five years ago, for an article, I conducted some tests to ascertain the time difference between my concealed and unconcealed draw. I began every draw with hands at sides, using my daily carry stuff which at the time was a Wilson .45 and IWB holster. Did five unconcealed draws, averaged the times. Did five draws from under a jacket, averaged the times. Then I compared the two numbers. On that day, with that equipment, at that skill level, the average difference that concealed vs. unconcealed made to me was .17 second.

Over the years, especially for an article I did about three years ago titled "How Fast Is Your Holster?" I've had a fair number of photos of taken of myself drawing from various holsters, with and without concealment. One thing that struck me, when viewing these photos, was just how little difference in the movements there is between my concealed and open draws. The only real difference is that in a concealed draw my master hand has to come up a bit higher to sweep the garment aside before going to the gun butt, where with an open draw it just goes straight to the grip. Other than that, the movements are identical.

I've also noticed, comparing old photos of myself drawing to photos taken today, my draw has gotten progressively more boring. Look at photos of my draw, say, ten years ago, I'm bent forward at the waist, one shoulder's up, the other's down, my hips are canted, knees bent, my head cranes forward as I glare at the target with a look of grim determination. It's an interesting photo because there's lots happening there. These days it's just a photo of a guy standing there, basically upright with a slight forward lean, and all that's moving is my arms. Of course this makes for a FAR faster draw....but a really boring photo!

[Mayonaise]

I've seen guys using mesh shotgun vests. We just kid them enough to give them the guilts that they stop wearing them.

[Practical Use]

Don't most folks use a silk smoking jacket???????

[rhino]

I just drape a pair of my tighty whities over my gun. No one is going to look long enough to know there's a gun under there.

[Mark Perez]

Don't most folks use a silk smoking jacket???????

only if their last name is "Hefner"....

[Redrum]

All equipment used in Defensive Pistol matches must meet the following simple guidelines: equipment must be practical for self-defense use, concealable, suitable for all-day continuous wear, and must be worn in a manner that would be appropriate for all-day continuous wear. The match director will be REQUIRED to disallow any equipment that does not meet these simple criteria. If you wouldn't carry it to defend yourself, you can't shoot or use it in Defensive Pistol competition.

Hmmmm..."Suitable for all-day continue wear" and " If you wouldn't carry it to defend yourself, you can't shoot or use it in Defensive Pistol competition."

Talk about your loaded answers...Here in VA, open carry is an option ...an option that I choose rather frequently. Just stands to reason that I can draw faster without any restrictions....and what I wear all day , that is comfortable for me, may not be for someone else.

and the whole if you wouldn't carry it, then you can't play the game with it attitude is just bogus...There are many people that I know that carry a ported handgun...but they cannot use it in IDPA...This goes directly against the rules that IDPA and Bill Wilson created....Guess that's why IPSC was formed (and that's another different can of worms...)

anyway...just throwing in my .02...FWIW

ps. I also have a optional concealment rule May-Oct...Indoor ranges get just to hot...

[Practical Use]

QUOTE: "This goes directly against the rules that IDPA and Bill Wilson created....Guess that's why IPSC was formed"

IPSC was 1st - not a response to IDPA. Apparently Bill Wilson is nothing but a self serving capitalist pig. I would wager that Wilson has put a lot more time and effort into IDPA than any related profit he has made - I bet he was doing just fine prior to IDPA. I get so tired of the Wilson bashing. If you think you are being taken advantage of by Bill Wilson, go shoot IPSC.

Ed

[Nik Habicht]

The topic is whether or not concealment should be mandatory or optional or something in between. Please keep your remarks on topic.

If you have anti shooting organization comments to make, please make them elsewhere. Thank You.

[midvalleyshooter]

Wear a cover garment, don't wear a cover garment. if you follow the club or stage rules its all good. Does this sort of thing have to reach the level of politics or religion???

As long as the challenge is the same for all, I am OK with it:) Lets just shoot and have some fun!!!

Keith

[banjobart]

At my matches I specify during the shooter's meeting that a concealment garment is required for the duration of the match. We put it on when we get out of the car then take it off when we leave. No matter how hot it gets. One can certainly choose to employ an IWB holster and what ever garment it takes, but most choose a belt holster and a vest or unbuttoned shirt to conceal.

[revchuck]

I'm the MD of a small IDPA club in SW Louisiana, where it does get warm in the summer months - temps and humidity both in the 90s. Concealment is optional depending on the conditions. This is pretty much standard procedure in the area.

I prefer new shooters (or shooters I'm not familiar with) to shoot their first match with us unconcealed, just so I can make sure they know what they're doing. If it's somebody's first match, and they've never drawn from a holster before, I don't want them trying to learn how to do too many things at once.

[Redrum]

Wear a cover garment, don't wear a cover garment. if you follow the club or stage rules its all good. Does this sort of thing have to reach the level of politics or religion???

As long as the challenge is the same for all, I am OK with it:) Lets just shoot and have some fun!!!

Keith

Well said Keith...I agree...I guess people are not allowed to have opinions around here...might be stepping on some toes...

Anyway...To conceal or not to conceal...that is the question...

There are times when I get frustrated with the LGB. It is , at times, as vague as a NASCAR rulebook...Fine...call it a guideline book then...But people get bashed by all these self professed experts regarding the rules...if it does not state that concealment MUST be used, then it is at the descretion of the shooter, or even prior to that, the MD in making the COF descriptions VERY CLEAR.

This game is supposed to be as close to life as possible...So let's make it that way. I don't have a problem with that...If I don't have to use concealment at a match (and I ask at the shooters safety brief) then I won't. But if it is stated that concealment must be worn , then I wear it...no questions asked. Conservative estimate is that 80% of the time I do not conceal. There are times when I do, because I do not have the time to explain to people or must, due to law. No biggie.