How to find the most accurate load?

[zdog]

Could someone give me the short version on how to come up with the most accurate (please read accurate to mean repeatable) load for 9mm using 124 pd jhp bullets?

I guess the question I have is should I start with trying different overall lengths first and after finding the best oal then go to powder charge?

I am currently using 4.7 WSF with an oal of 1.085 but I also have WST, W231, Unique and Clays I could use. With my current load I am getting about a 2 inch group at 6 yards.

I am shooting a XDm 5.25 btw

If anyone has discovered the magic combination using pd 124 jhps in the XDm 5.25 I would be glad to buy you lunch the next time I run into you if that works if you were to share.

zdog

Edited January 22, 2013 by zdog

[Hi-Power Jack]

John, best is to determine what PF you need, and try each powder

at that PF , IMHO. First, of course, you want to determine the longest

OAL compatible with your mags/gun.

That means you have to chrono the loads, and fire 10 - 15 shot groups

at 15 - 25 yards, from a rest, preferably. Find the powder/OAL that works

best for you - depends on Your definition of "most accurate". Lot of times,

accuracy is only one of few criteria for selecting your load - muzzle flash,

dirtiness, perceived recoil & PF, being a few others.

What are you doing with your loads?

[zdog]

Hi Jack,

Don't say that very loud in any airport these days btw. I am a SS shooting uspsa. My shoulder quit hurting at night after I quit shooting my 1911 and starting shooting production with my XDm 9. My primary goal now is to find maximum repeatability and meet minor power factor. The other criteria you mentioned are currently second to finding repeatability.

I have yet to find a 9mm load that will come close to matching the repeatablilty of my 1911 at 6 or 10 yards and since I am shooting minor now I need that repeatability to be there to because of the scoring penalty. I have not been satisfied with the repeatability in my 5 inch XD9, my CZ75 SPO1 or my XDM9. I keep hearing folks descibe these pistols as tack drivers but I have yet to see that.

Why do you suggest starting at the maximum oal on the 9mm? I know that is where the maximum repeatablility usually is in a 308. Does the same hold true with a pistol round such as the 9mm.

zdog

[Hi-Power Jack]

John, surprised re: CZ75 - I've never shot one, but have heard great

things re: them = accuracy, too. Was that with your reloads?

I'd start at max OAL (actually a little under max) for better feeding

and lower pressure - you can always seat the bullets a little deeper

later, in trial & error - check for accuracy. E.g., my BHP is little more

accurate at 1.12" (MG 124 gr JHP) but functions better at 1.13".

I'm really surprised you're having trouble with accuracy at 6 yards?

Those bullets should be all in one large hole at that distance.

Have you tried shooting groups at 15 yards?

[zdog]

John, surprised re: CZ75 - I've never shot one, but have heard great

things re: them = accuracy, too. Was that with your reloads?

I'd start at max OAL (actually a little under max) for better feeding

and lower pressure - you can always seat the bullets a little deeper

later, in trial & error - check for accuracy. E.g., my BHP is little more

accurate at 1.12" (MG 124 gr JHP) but functions better at 1.13".

I'm really surprised you're having trouble with accuracy at 6 yards?

Those bullets should be all in one large hole at that distance.

Have you tried shooting groups at 15 yards?

I agree....that is why I have decided to go on a crusade to improve the repeatabilty of my reloads.

Yes it was with my reloads and I think I did try some factory 9mm also.

I guess the route to go unless I hear different is to try some different oal's and then start adjusting the powder load from the most repeatable oal.

I have a 1972 9mm HP that is currently in the shop for an over haul. What recipe do you find best for your HP

zdog

Edited January 22, 2013 by zdog

[polizei1]

I'm not well versed in this, but I can say that standard deviation will most likely play a large role. You want single digit numbers.

[Hi-Power Jack]

John, in my BHP, I found it's more accurate with heavier bullets (147 gr).

Slightly more accurate with the MG at 1.12", but functions better at 1.13",

so I give up a little accuracy for reliable functioning.

I've never experimented with different powders - only bullets.

When you get gun back, I'd run accuracy tests at 15 yards, from a rest,

and compare them to factory ammo runs at same distance.

Good luck.

[Darrell]

If you do a search, I posted several loads in spreadsheet form that has the info you need, but to recap, if you are looking for accuracy, the best powder for 9mm is Power Pistol, and N330 or N340. WSF is a good 9mm powder but if you are looking for repeatable accuracy 5.8 - 6.0 of Power Pistol, or 4.8-5.0 N340 at and OAL of 1.085 with either Hornady, Precision Delta, or Montana gold 124 gr JHP. I do all my accuracy testing by loading to and OAL that is .010 off the rifling. I then work up charge by .2 gr starting 10% below listed max charge. I then Chrono and test for accuracy in 10 shot groups. I pick the best group then I start lowering OAL in .010 increments to see if accuracy improves. Thats how I came up with 4.8 of N340 @ 1.085". Also you will not get the most accuracy if loading to a power factor of 130-135 its a compromise of recoil management. Extreme accuracy comes in at a powerfactor above 140 in my experience. A 115 GR XTP needs 1250 FPS, a 124 JHP needs 1150 fps. Best accuracy for me at 130-135 pf is with 124 MG with 4.0 gr of Tightgroup at 1.110". That in my Shadow, and Springfield 1911.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Welcome back, Darrell, I've missed your input.

Jack

[Darrell]

Welcome back, Darrell, I've missed your input.

Jack

Thanks Jack, I've been away about 4 months due to my house being flooded in hurricane Isaac. Just got back in my house a few weeks ago, still have to deal with the workshop, but basically I'm out 14 rifles, and lots of primers, powders, and reloading stuff. Just about everything below 4 feet got ruined. At least Cannon is sending me a new safe free of charge. Covered by their warranty against fire and flooding.

[LikesToShoot]

Could someone give me the short version on how to come up with the most accurate (please read accurate to mean repeatable) load for 9mm using 124 pd jhp bullets?

I guess the question I have is should I start with trying different overall lengths first and after finding the best oal then go to powder charge?

I am currently using 4.7 WSF with an oal of 1.085 but I also have WST, W231, Unique and Clays I could use. With my current load I am getting about a 2 inch group at 6 yards.

I am shooting a XDm 5.25 btw

If anyone has discovered the magic combination using pd 124 jhps in the XDm 5.25 I would be glad to buy you lunch the next time I run into you if that works if you were to share.

zdog

What works for me in a M&P Pro, 5" barrel is 124 gr MG JHP over 3.7 Clays at 1.120". Very clean, accurate and soft shooting that averages 133 PF.

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Plug your data into this recoil calculator and see the results.

http://www.brianenos.com/pages/dillon/cal.conv.chart.html

At 6 yards I'd want one ragged hole.

To get a real good comparison I think you'd need new or once fired, same brand brass to get a real accurate test.

I could be wrong.

All my brass is range pickup and I have no idea how many times it's been used.

[zdog]

Thanks for the info everyone. I found that with the pd 124 jhp I start touching the lans about 116 oal. I did a few tests with 115, 114,113 and 112 and found that the 113 and 114 were the best. Now I need to start working on the powder and for sure I need to use the same brand of brass when I do so. I haven't even shopped for powder yet so I don't know what availability is with the cazyness that is going on. I did try some wst and thought that was a little snappy compared to the wst. I did a batch of 10 rounds for each length and shot 5 through a 5 in XD and 5 through my 5.25 XDm but did not notice a large difference.. More work to do obviously.

zdog

[LikesToShoot]

Thanks for the info everyone. I found that with the pd 124 jhp I start touching the lans about 116 oal. I did a few tests with 115, 114,113 and 112 and found that the 113 and 114 were the best. Now I need to start working on the powder and for sure I need to use the same brand of brass when I do so. I haven't even shopped for powder yet so I don't know what availability is with the cazyness that is going on. I did try some wst and thought that was a little snappy compared to the wst. I did a batch of 10 rounds for each length and shot 5 through a 5 in XD and 5 through my 5.25 XDm but did not notice a large difference.. More work to do obviously.

zdog

I'd only use the same brass is i REALLY wanted get get picky with a chrono.

For instance, I'm working up a load with a Bear Creek bullet right now. (I bought a bunch real cheap and they'll be for practice and local match's)

Tonight I loaded 10 rounds at each level of charge and have them in tagged zip lock bags. Next trip to the range I'll set up labeled paper plates at 15 yards and put a black paster in the center. The first plate will get my pet load, previously posted, the remaining plates will get their labeled loads. Which ever one groups the best I'll run it thru the chrono. (If it wasn't 20 degrees and I had the time I'd chrono at the same time.)

[Hammbone]

If you do a search, I posted several loads in spreadsheet form that has the info you need, but to recap, if you are looking for accuracy, the best powder for 9mm is Power Pistol, and N330 or N340. WSF is a good 9mm powder but if you are looking for repeatable accuracy 5.8 - 6.0 of Power Pistol, or 4.8-5.0 N340 at and OAL of 1.085 with either Hornady, Precision Delta, or Montana gold 124 gr JHP. I do all my accuracy testing by loading to and OAL that is .010 off the rifling. I then work up charge by .2 gr starting 10% below listed max charge. I then Chrono and test for accuracy in 10 shot groups. I pick the best group then I start lowering OAL in .010 increments to see if accuracy improves. Thats how I came up with 4.8 of N340 @ 1.085". Also you will not get the most accuracy if loading to a power factor of 130-135 its a compromise of recoil management. Extreme accuracy comes in at a powerfactor above 140 in my experience. A 115 GR XTP needs 1250 FPS, a 124 JHP needs 1150 fps. Best accuracy for me at 130-135 pf is with 124 MG with 4.0 gr of Tightgroup at 1.110". That in my Shadow, and Springfield 1911.

Darrell, This is excellent info! I have a couple of follow up questions:

1) What do you mean by 0.010" off the rifling?

2) What is your experience with plated bullet? What different technique would you apply.

3) What is the bullet length of say an MG 124gr JHP?

I have a bunch of RN plated bullets, but I have a theory about case volume (can't prove it yet). Would it be true to say that if I take the length of my RN, minus the length of your JHP, and add the difference to your OAL to get my OAL, we should have similar loads?

Edited January 24, 2013 by Hammbone

[JerryShoots]

The best way is still to test them and make small changes until you hit the best balance.

[Darrell]

If you do a search, I posted several loads in spreadsheet form that has the info you need, but to recap, if you are looking for accuracy, the best powder for 9mm is Power Pistol, and N330 or N340. WSF is a good 9mm powder but if you are looking for repeatable accuracy 5.8 - 6.0 of Power Pistol, or 4.8-5.0 N340 at and OAL of 1.085 with either Hornady, Precision Delta, or Montana gold 124 gr JHP. I do all my accuracy testing by loading to and OAL that is .010 off the rifling. I then work up charge by .2 gr starting 10% below listed max charge. I then Chrono and test for accuracy in 10 shot groups. I pick the best group then I start lowering OAL in .010 increments to see if accuracy improves. Thats how I came up with 4.8 of N340 @ 1.085". Also you will not get the most accuracy if loading to a power factor of 130-135 its a compromise of recoil management. Extreme accuracy comes in at a powerfactor above 140 in my experience. A 115 GR XTP needs 1250 FPS, a 124 JHP needs 1150 fps. Best accuracy for me at 130-135 pf is with 124 MG with 4.0 gr of Tightgroup at 1.110". That in my Shadow, and Springfield 1911.

Darrell, This is excellent info! I have a couple of follow up questions:

1) What do you mean by 0.010" off the rifling?

2) What is your experience with plated bullet? What different technique would you apply.

3) What is the bullet length of say an MG 124gr JHP?

I have a bunch of RN plated bullets, but I have a theory about case volume (can't prove it yet). Would it be true to say that if I take the length of my RN, minus the length of your JHP, and add the difference to your OAL to get my OAL, we should have similar loads?

1. I make a round long where the ogive touches the lands of the rifling. I take the barrel out, put the round in and try to twist it, I decrease the overall length until the round twist freely meaning that the bullet ogive isn't touching the lands, and the case is headspacing in the barrel. I then decrease the overall length another .010 inch then start my loading from there.

2. Plated bullets will never be as accurate as jacketed. Use minimum or no crimp, do not try to push the velocity past 1100 fps. I had some good loads with Berry's plated in the past using 231 and Tightgroup powders, but that was with 147 gr bullets.

3. An M.G. 124 JHP is .576" long. When I load this bullet now I load at 1.110" because that length works in all my 9mm's and gives great performance. Best accuracy with this bullet for me is with N340 and Power Pistol.

[Hammbone]

If you do a search, I posted several loads in spreadsheet form that has the info you need, but to recap, if you are looking for accuracy, the best powder for 9mm is Power Pistol, and N330 or N340. WSF is a good 9mm powder but if you are looking for repeatable accuracy 5.8 - 6.0 of Power Pistol, or 4.8-5.0 N340 at and OAL of 1.085 with either Hornady, Precision Delta, or Montana gold 124 gr JHP. I do all my accuracy testing by loading to and OAL that is .010 off the rifling. I then work up charge by .2 gr starting 10% below listed max charge. I then Chrono and test for accuracy in 10 shot groups. I pick the best group then I start lowering OAL in .010 increments to see if accuracy improves. Thats how I came up with 4.8 of N340 @ 1.085". Also you will not get the most accuracy if loading to a power factor of 130-135 its a compromise of recoil management. Extreme accuracy comes in at a powerfactor above 140 in my experience. A 115 GR XTP needs 1250 FPS, a 124 JHP needs 1150 fps. Best accuracy for me at 130-135 pf is with 124 MG with 4.0 gr of Tightgroup at 1.110". That in my Shadow, and Springfield 1911.

Darrell, This is excellent info! I have a couple of follow up questions:

1) What do you mean by 0.010" off the rifling?

2) What is your experience with plated bullet? What different technique would you apply.

3) What is the bullet length of say an MG 124gr JHP?

I have a bunch of RN plated bullets, but I have a theory about case volume (can't prove it yet). Would it be true to say that if I take the length of my RN, minus the length of your JHP, and add the difference to your OAL to get my OAL, we should have similar loads?

1. I make a round long where the ogive touches the lands of the rifling. I take the barrel out, put the round in and try to twist it, I decrease the overall length until the round twist freely meaning that the bullet ogive isn't touching the lands, and the case is headspacing in the barrel. I then decrease the overall length another .010 inch then start my loading from there.

2. Plated bullets will never be as accurate as jacketed. Use minimum or no crimp, do not try to push the velocity past 1100 fps. I had some good loads with Berry's plated in the past using 231 and Tightgroup powders, but that was with 147 gr bullets.

3. An M.G. 124 JHP is .576" long. When I load this bullet now I load at 1.110" because that length works in all my 9mm's and gives great performance. Best accuracy with this bullet for me is with N340 and Power Pistol.

Thank you for the feedback! It's greatly appreciated.

I happen to have some 147gr Berry's AND some Titegroup. I haven't done a lot of experimenting with this combo yet, but my initial test did not have good results in the accuracy department. I'd be interested to know what figured out to work for you (I'm on top of the MINIMUM crimp - I iterated back and forth with a tech at Berry's with pictures until he said I was good to go).

Currently, I'm trying to keep my 147gr loads around 900fps and 124gr loads around 1030fps-ish.

[fireman489]

Darrell, would you care to share the 147g /231 load recipe that you said you had success with ? Also were they HP or RN ?? Im totally new to reloading also, and appreciate the wisdom Im getting from folks like yourself. I'll be using loads in my G4 Glock 34 if it makes any difference.

[mizer67]

If you do a search, I posted several loads in spreadsheet form that has the info you need, but to recap, if you are looking for accuracy, the best powder for 9mm is Power Pistol, and N330 or N340. WSF is a good 9mm powder but if you are looking for repeatable accuracy 5.8 - 6.0 of Power Pistol, or 4.8-5.0 N340 at and OAL of 1.085 with either Hornady, Precision Delta, or Montana gold 124 gr JHP. I do all my accuracy testing by loading to and OAL that is .010 off the rifling. I then work up charge by .2 gr starting 10% below listed max charge. I then Chrono and test for accuracy in 10 shot groups. I pick the best group then I start lowering OAL in .010 increments to see if accuracy improves. Thats how I came up with 4.8 of N340 @ 1.085". Also you will not get the most accuracy if loading to a power factor of 130-135 its a compromise of recoil management. Extreme accuracy comes in at a powerfactor above 140 in my experience. A 115 GR XTP needs 1250 FPS, a 124 JHP needs 1150 fps. Best accuracy for me at 130-135 pf is with 124 MG with 4.0 gr of Tightgroup at 1.110". That in my Shadow, and Springfield 1911.

Darrell, This is excellent info! I have a couple of follow up questions:

1) What do you mean by 0.010" off the rifling?

2) What is your experience with plated bullet? What different technique would you apply.

3) What is the bullet length of say an MG 124gr JHP?

I have a bunch of RN plated bullets, but I have a theory about case volume (can't prove it yet). Would it be true to say that if I take the length of my RN, minus the length of your JHP, and add the difference to your OAL to get my OAL, we should have similar loads?

1. I make a round long where the ogive touches the lands of the rifling. I take the barrel out, put the round in and try to twist it, I decrease the overall length until the round twist freely meaning that the bullet ogive isn't touching the lands, and the case is headspacing in the barrel. I then decrease the overall length another .010 inch then start my loading from there.

2. Plated bullets will never be as accurate as jacketed. Use minimum or no crimp, do not try to push the velocity past 1100 fps. I had some good loads with Berry's plated in the past using 231 and Tightgroup powders, but that was with 147 gr bullets.

3. An M.G. 124 JHP is .576" long. When I load this bullet now I load at 1.110" because that length works in all my 9mm's and gives great performance. Best accuracy with this bullet for me is with N340 and Power Pistol.

One thing I've learned on Benos is, read Darrell's posts and follow the advice.

Saves time and money.

[Darrell]

Darrell, would you care to share the 147g /231 load recipe that you said you had success with ? Also were they HP or RN ?? Im totally new to reloading also, and appreciate the wisdom Im getting from folks like yourself. I'll be using loads in my G4 Glock 34 if it makes any difference.

Bayou 147 @ 1.145 with 3.4 gr of W231 Coated flat point.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Darrell

[fireman489]

Thank you Sir ..... think I'll give'r a shot !

[Hammbone]

Darrell, would you care to share the 147g /231 load recipe that you said you had success with ? Also were they HP or RN ?? Im totally new to reloading also, and appreciate the wisdom Im getting from folks like yourself. I'll be using loads in my G4 Glock 34 if it makes any difference.

Bayou 147 @ 1.145 with 3.4 gr of W231 Coated flat point.

Did you get a chance to look at your load for 147gr Berry's w/ TG?

[lablover]

Give this a try in your XDM 5.25 9mm

3.3-3.4 gr Titegroup

Win small pistol primers

Montana Gold 147 CMJ 1.145 OAL

Mixed brass

Pure joy and accurate!!

My 5.25 did best with the 3.3 titegroup. I got one single hole with 10 rounds at 15 yards offhand.

For some reason my wifes XDM likes 3.4 gr

Hope you find it does the same for you. I know several guys that shoot that load and love it.

Edited January 25, 2013 by lablover

[zdog]

Give this a try in your XDM 5.25 9mm

3.3-3.4 gr Titegroup

Win small pistol primers

Montana Gold 147 CMJ 1.145 OAL

Mixed brass

Pure joy and accurate!!

My 5.25 did best with the 3.3 titegroup. I got one single hole with 10 rounds at 15 yards offhand.

For some reason my wifes XDM likes 3.4 gr

Hope you find it does the same for you. I know several guys that shoot that load and love it.

Maybe there is hope.....nice target.

zdog

[DougCarden]

Of course Darrell is spot on and I love reading his information, Hope life is getting back to normal for you sir!

One thing about the XD and XDM trigger. I have worked with several shooters with these guns. A lot of the accuracy issues are due to trigger control. The factory guns have triggers that a little long and stagey, and take some effort. When you put a nice trigger in like Powder River, Canyon Creek, or Springer then you can really see the accuracy of the gun. A good general OAL that seems to work in a bunch of guns well is 1.120 OAL depending on the ogive of the bullet.

At 50 yds we have found that a 115 JHP like the XTP running at 1150-1180 shoots the best, and at least 1100 for the 124-125 JHPs for best accuracy.

Good info in this thread. Good luck!

DougC