Terrible accuracy! 147gr Berry's, Titegroup and Glock 34

[mcracco]

You probably will want to read this article if you haven't already just so you become more familiar with polygonal rifling. Basically Glock is saying their barrels need jacketed bullets and plated bullets behave more like lead.

Like the others have suggested, try some Montana Gold 124's. You should be able to peddle the 147's you have without too much trouble.

[RePete]

Well I called Berry's today and explained this issue. The response I got was that in their experience the plated bullets have trouble with the glock rifling. The gentleman I spoke with said that they work in some guns, and have poor accuracy in others, depends on the particular barrel. He mentioned that if the crimp is not damaging the plating then its 95% chance its the barrel.

He did suggest that their 124gr hollow base bullet has a much thicker plating than the 147gr, and would send me a sample of those to try.

Its too bad I have 12k rounds of the 147gr! After reading about all the folks on here that use this bullet in their glocks with titegroup I figured it was a non-issue.

Any other ideas for things I can try to get some workable accuracy out of this bullet?

Thanks

If the barrel is the problem, then it would be worth picking up a LoneWolf barrel, fire off the 12K Berrys and at the end of that, sell the barrel and change to a different bullet.

[Justsomeguy]

I'm with RePete on getting a Lone Wolf barrel, except I would keep it. It will most likely be more accurate than the polygonal Glock barrel, and you can shoot anything through it including lead, plated, or jacketed. The cost is minimal and it's generally a drop in solution.

[Steve RA]

If you are going to change barrels, I'd recommend a KKM gunsmith fit barrel. Easy to fit, but, you'll need to send back to KKM - with a loaded dummy round - and get the chamber lengthened for that round, or have a local gunsmith do that.

[jerseyglock]

Well I called Berry's today and explained this issue. The response I got was that in their experience the plated bullets have trouble with the glock rifling. The gentleman I spoke with said that they work in some guns, and have poor accuracy in others, depends on the particular barrel. He mentioned that if the crimp is not damaging the plating then its 95% chance its the barrel.

He did suggest that their 124gr hollow base bullet has a much thicker plating than the 147gr, and would send me a sample of those to try.

Its too bad I have 12k rounds of the 147gr! After reading about all the folks on here that use this bullet in their glocks with titegroup I figured it was a non-issue.

Any other ideas for things I can try to get some workable accuracy out of this bullet?

Thanks

Try 115 and 124gr RNHB (double struck).

[lee blackman]

Hey, randomly pull some of your bullets from the pile and see how much the powder charge varies from cartridge to cartridge... I noticed your groups really don't look that bad for 10 yards. Looks about horizontally but spread more vertically which tells me one of two things. Inconsistent crimp, OR and this is the more likely answer, inconsistent powder charge.

Pull about 10 of your cartridges randomly, pull the bullet, and measure each individual powder charge. See how much variance your getting. If your not having a good consistent throw, your going to see difference.

Also consider checking your deviation in velocity over a chronograph. If your crimp and powder charges are both good and consistant but your getting like 50fps or more deviation then you might want to look at things like a heavier recoil spring to make the slide stick longer with your heavier bullets.

I never had any problems with berry's plated bullets thru my factory barrel in my 34. But I never found a need for the added expense of 147gr bullets. I've been shooting montana gold 115gr JHP ($337 per 4000qty) with AA#2 at just over minor PF, and haven't had any problems on steel.

[Hammbone]

Okay. This just in. (First yes, make sure you have the right crimp - pull a bullet and you should just barely see a witness of a crimp...to a point where any less you'd see nothing).

I've been reloading for 6mo, but just now got a chronograph. I made a bunch of "experimental" loads. One of them happened to be with Berry's 147gr and Titegroup. (I shoot a Beretta M9). Here's what I discovered:

3.0gr TG = Hi-845, Lo-816, Avg-826, ES-29, SD-11

3.2gr TG = Hi-892, Lo-855, Avg-874, ES-37, SD-15

3.4gr TG = Hi-922, Lo-906, Avg-914, ES-16, SD-6

3.6gr TG = Hi-939, Lo-893, Avg-904, ES-46, SD-20

I'm not going to pretend like I understand what was happening here, but past 3.4gr things got sporadic! Average PF was actually HIGHER at 3.4gr than 3.6gr and a much tighter window (133.2-135.5, avg-134.4 for 3.4gr. 131.3-138.0, avg-132.9 for 3.6gr).

Try 3.4gr and see what happens!

[-Ace-]

I mainly run MG 124gr JHP with Titegroup through my 34's, but I've ran the MG 147's with good results as well, so maybe it is the berrys bullets and your guns rifling. Also, what recoil spring are you running?

[Boxerglocker]

OP, what crimp die are you using? You don't mention you die set-up at all in your posts.

[njl]

Have you tried this load in any other guns? I went through a few thousand Xtreme 147gr plated bullets in my G17 and was quite happy with my loads but then found that these same loads tumble from my G34. If they run fine in one gun but not so well in another, it's hard to blame the load.

(null)

[lugnut]

Some barrel/rifling combinations don't like 147gr and heavier bullets out of handguns.... I had an issue with M&Ps personally.

[Bansheex]

I just ordered 1000 rounds of the Berry's 147 to shoot out of my XDM. Now I'm wondering if I should have stayed with MG. I'm using 3.7grs of Bullseye at 1.14 OAL, and will report how they do.

[Boxerglocker]

I'm waiting for the Op to answer my crimp die question. I have a strange feeling he may be using a Lee FCD which would answer all his accuracy issues.

[Hammbone]

I have a strange feeling he may be using a Lee FCD which would answer all his accuracy issues.

Oh please do elaborate, or at least point me in the right direction. I use a Lee FCD. Is there a known inherent issue with these? (not being sarcastic. just asking.)

[RePete]

Some barrel/rifling combinations don't like 147gr and heavier bullets out of handguns.... I had an issue with M&Ps personally.

I have friends that have M&P's and one of them I load for. Plated, lead and Bayou Bullets all 147's and never an accuracy issue.

I have a strange feeling he may be using a Lee FCD which would answer all his accuracy issues.

Oh please do elaborate, or at least point me in the right direction. I use a Lee FCD. Is there a known inherent issue with these? (not being sarcastic. just asking.)

If there is a problem with the LCD it's usually swagging down of the bullet because the die is adjusted incorrectly.

[Boxerglocker]

Some barrel/rifling combinations don't like 147gr and heavier bullets out of handguns.... I had an issue with M&Ps personally.

I have friends that have M&P's and one of them I load for. Plated, lead and Bayou Bullets all 147's and never an accuracy issue.

I have a strange feeling he may be using a Lee FCD which would answer all his accuracy issues.

Oh please do elaborate, or at least point me in the right direction. I use a Lee FCD. Is there a known inherent issue with these? (not being sarcastic. just asking.)

If there is a problem with the LCD it's usually swagging down of the bullet because the die is adjusted incorrectly.

Lead and plated bullets need to be over sized for the bore of your gun in order to seal. The FCD irons out the case and bullet. As a result accuracy suffers. I'm going to direct you yet another recent thread over on GTR about the FCD.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1462142

Edited January 8, 2013 by Boxerglocker

[Hammbone]

Some barrel/rifling combinations don't like 147gr and heavier bullets out of handguns.... I had an issue with M&Ps personally.

I have friends that have M&P's and one of them I load for. Plated, lead and Bayou Bullets all 147's and never an accuracy issue.

I have a strange feeling he may be using a Lee FCD which would answer all his accuracy issues.

Oh please do elaborate, or at least point me in the right direction. I use a Lee FCD. Is there a known inherent issue with these? (not being sarcastic. just asking.)

If there is a problem with the LCD it's usually swagging down of the bullet because the die is adjusted incorrectly.

Lead and plated bullets need to be over sized for the bore of your gun in order to seal. The FCD irons out the case and bullet.

So what I'm hearing is, it's PRIMARILY a set-up issue? I went through an iterative process with a tech at Rainier's. With my Lee Classic Turret press, I seated a bullet, ran it through the FCD, then disassembled and took a pic and sent it to him. We iterated this way until he said "Yes, good!"

[Steve RA]

I think the biggest objection to the LFCD isn't the adjustment, it is the carbide ring at the bottom, which is hard for most of us to adjust.

[Boxerglocker]

So what I'm hearing is, it's PRIMARILY a set-up issue? I went through an iterative process with a tech at Rainier's. With my Lee Classic Turret press, I seated a bullet, ran it through the FCD, then disassembled and took a pic and sent it to him. We iterated this way until he said "Yes, good!"

I'm not going to get into a debate, but the way I see it is the FCD is a crutch for improper setting of your dies. The carbide ring smooths out the brass and the bullet to yes aid in reliability of feeding in semi-autos but at the cost of accuracy due to deformation of a bullet. I'll state that this only applies only to lead and plated. With FMJ it has little if any effect. Have a look at the link I posted. Fred over there has done extensive testing, and I have done so with my own loads. He's got pics posted.

[Hammbone]

I'm not going to get into a debate, but the way I see it is the FCD is a crutch for improper setting of your dies. The carbide ring smooths out the brass and the bullet to yes aid in reliability of feeding in semi-autos but at the cost of accuracy due to deformation of a bullet. I'll state that this only applies only to lead and plated. With FMJ it has little if any effect. Have a look at the link I posted. Fred over there has done extensive testing, and I have done so with my own loads. He's got pics posted.

No debate requested. I apologize if I came across as though I was picking one. I am honestly just trying to learn about the Lee FCD. I started reloading 6mo ago and purchased a Lee Classic Turret press and the Lee 4-die set. I've been using it because it came with it one and figured I "had" to. I may load up 50rds while skipping the FCD to see if I notice an accuracy difference. Thanks for the tips.

[rhyrlik]

After wasting a year testing 147s with every available powder I could get my hands on, I found my Glock prefers 124/5gr bullets over AA#7. And my best groups are with the 124gr Gold Dots. They put Zero 125s to shame. This sucks because Gold Dots are about as scarce as gold itself.

I have about 3K of Zero 147 JHPs that I will gladly trade for 124 Gold Dots right now.

[eric nielsen]

Regardless of what might be the cause, when you have inaccurate ammo using plated bullets, go look for little bits of copper plating between your shooting position and your target. If you shoot at an indoor range, you'll need the rangemaster's help/permission. Bet you will find some. A lot of it will be just about the size & diameter of the base of your bullets. Seen this more than once.

Get a buddy can stand off to the side and watch the space starting about 5-10' in front of your muzzle as you shoot. Do they see anything peculiar? Like shiny bits of something floating down from your line of fire? Seen this more than once too.

Trying a lot of powders behind a lot of bullets, maybe Titegroup (a wonderful powder) is a little tough on bullet bases - you can see it cause more smoke when shooting moly- or plastic-coated bullets, compared to slower or cooler-burning powders. You may find that Titegroup w/jacketed is great, or N320 w/moly or plated is great, but Titegroup with moly or plated, not so great. YMMV & thanks for the links

Edited January 9, 2013 by eric nielsen

[judgecrater]

If you are going to change barrels, I'd recommend a KKM gunsmith fit barrel. Easy to fit, but, you'll need to send back to KKM - with a loaded dummy round - and get the chamber lengthened for that round, or have a local gunsmith do that.

Even the drop in KKM is excellent. Mine loves 147 gr lead. One hole at 7 yards.

[RePete]

One hole at 7 yards.

My factory barrel does that at 15yds and so should most. But what does it do at 25yds?

[njl]

I call BS. My plated loads are just as good as some top jacketed bullets. Same with my G34 and my CZ75.

I'm firmly in the "some guns don't like some bullets" camp. I tried (a few thousand) X-Treme 147gr plated bullets. I was quite happy with them from my G17. Then I dusted off the G34 with Optima2000, and found that the same load that was great in the G17 tumbles/keyholes frequently (like several per mag) from the G34. Both are older Gen3 guns. Both have thousands of rounds through them. Both work fine with every other bullet/ammo I've used...but the G34 doesn't like / won't stabilize the X-Treme 147s for some reason. I don't like the idea of having to keep track of which ammo is for which gun (beyond caliber), so the simple solution is don't use those bullets any more.

The only problem now is that the panic/frenzy buying seems to have made it to reloaders, and now all my usual sources for the bullets I like are out of stock and/or 1-2 months behind filling orders. I just did a quick inventory, and unless things calm down soon, it looks like I'll be back to shooting 124gr in 9mm for a while. I'll run out of 147 FMJ in the next couple months or sooner.