Both Eyes OPEN?

[Histate]

I noticed when shooting with both eyes open I focus on the target picture then bring my sights to my line of sight. I've noticed that the sights are some what blurry but I'm still able to focus and line up the sights and stay with a clear target picture. Is there any disadvantage of this method? I've tried to acquire target picture then raise sights to my line of sight while focusing on the front sight, when I do this my target picture becomes blurry and doubles I know I should be holding on the natural point of aim but some times seeing a double blurry target throws me off. Is there a way to correct this or is the first method acceptable?

[bountyhunter]

I noticed when shooting with both eyes open I focus on the target picture then bring my sights to my line of sight. I've noticed that the sights are some what blurry but I'm still able to focus and line up the sights and stay with a clear target picture. Is there any disadvantage of this method? I've tried to acquire target picture then raise sights to my line of sight while focusing on the front sight, when I do this my target picture becomes blurry and doubles I know I should be holding on the natural point of aim but some times seeing a double blurry target throws me off. Is there a way to correct this or is the first method acceptable?

Depends on your definition of "acceptable". I have been doing it for about 20 years. Most times when I say I do or post the method you describe:

both eyes open I focus on the target picture then bring my sights to my line of sight. I've noticed that the sights are some what blurry but I'm still able to focus and line up the sights and stay with a clear target picture.

I generally get laughed at or dismissed since "everybody knows you close one eye and focus on the front sight".

I don't, not any more. I shoot better when the target is clear. I sometimes switch back to the "one eye squint" for my .22 bullseye league and see if I can get better scores that way but it does not.

Shooting with two eyes open has so many advantages I don't know why it isn't taught as a baseline skill. The one-eye-squint should only be taught as a sub skill IMHO.

[bountyhunter]

I noticed when shooting with both eyes open I focus on the target picture then bring my sights to my line of sight. I've noticed that the sights are some what blurry but I'm still able to focus and line up the sights and stay with a clear target picture.

If memory serves me, Plaxco also describes using the method briefly at one point in his book "Shooting From Within" and refers to it as "indirect sighting". However, he also has another section in the book talking about how you should focus on the front sight..... so take your pick.

http://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Within-Guide-Maximum-Performance/dp/0962692514

[partyboy424]

A couple of weeks ago it was pointed out to me that my form was terrible. Whenever I was put into a position that wasn't ideal for having my legs a little more than shoulder width apart, I would end up in all sorts of configurations, especially with barricades. To combat crunching up and bending my elbows, lowering the gun while moving and stuff like that. I ordered a Open setup, I figure if I practice a lot with that and work on not losing the dot. Then for the most part, I should have good form, since bad form leads to that dot dissapearing.

Then came my real problem of knowing that Open shooters all shoot with both eyes open, something I've never attempted with more than 20 rounds and have failed miserably every time and also the fact that they don't focus on the dot and instead focus on the target and pull the trigger when the dot comes over the area of the target they want the bullet to go. (At least this is my understanding of how Open shooting works)

So, last week I went to the range to test out some new parts on my M&P and for shits and giggles decided to try shooting with both eyes open. The only difference shooting that way now vs my other attempts, is that I have a red fiber front and blacked out rear sights. All the other times I always had 3 dot whites. So I would see 6 white dots and two targets (bullets went everywhere but the target). With this setup it was a whole lot easier to get the ghost image to dissapear, but I still couldn't focus on the front sight without seeing two rear sights and two targets. After about 20 shots of pretty consistently missing I decided to shoot it like an Open gun. Focusing on the target and when the front sight appeard to line up (even though it was blurry) I'd pull the trigger. Went 12 for 12 on 6" plates, then over to 4" plates on a dueling tree and consistently hit those.

Almost all misses had nothing to with my sight picture, they had to do with jerking the trigger or something of that nature. It still needs a lot of work, right now it takes me longer to see that sight picture and follow up shots are a lot harder than with one eye closed, but I do notice that I flinch a lot less when I can relax both of my eyes and keep them both open. I've got a couple more things I want to try, but so far this "indirect sighting" thing seems to work for me, at least at a slower speed.

[toothguy]

If you are looking at the target, with iron sights, you aren't calling your shots. It's point shooting. You can get by on close targets, but you are limiting the visual information you are receiving. If you are limiting the visual information, you are limiting your awareness.

[Dwight Stearns]

It is quite possible to call your shots when using target focus when shooting with iron sights. It is actually just as easy as using front sight focus. With target focus, one must concentrate on seeing that the front sight is properly alligned in the rear sight window and superimpose that alignment onto the target. Just like one does with front sight focus. It's just that the sights are fuzzy. One calls the shot by observing where the sights are when the sights lift from recoil.

Partyboy, you are onto what I have found with target focus. Some form of front sight augmentation (like fiber optics ) greatly improves your speed and accuracy when using target focus. It has been years since I have focused on my front sight and yes I do call my shots at any distance. Partyboy, if it is working for you, don't fix it, it ain't broke.

Dwight

Edited January 13, 2013 by Dwight Stearns

[toothguy]

Your attention and your sharp vision can only be in one place at a time. If your calling your shots your attention is on the front sight and it's relationship in the rear sight when it lifts in recoil. One would think it would be more accurate if your sharp vision was in the same place as your attention. Other than acquiring the target, the target doesn't have any information you need. If you are calling your shots, you have a good idea where you hit the target without looking. If you are using a target focus it easy to concentrate on seeing your hits, and shoot an entire stage without seeing your sights.

I must be a freak because I almost always have worse hit quality when I have a target focus and my gun or sights are in my peripheral vision. I can run a stage in the exact same time using both a target focus and a sight focus and my sight focus run will always yield better quality hits. I have proven to myself time and time again that it takes no additional time to keep a sight focus even on the closest targets. The added benefit to this is that keeping a sight focus allows me to call my shots instead of looking at the target for holes. You can waste a boat load of stage time looking for holes to appear in the target when you have a hard target focus.

Edited January 13, 2013 by toothguy

[Dwight Stearns]

Front sight focus is more accurate than target focus but we are talking degrees here. Bullseye shooters have known for decades that for the utmost in accuracy, you have to focus on the front sight but bullseye shooters are worried about hitting a one inch X ring at 25 and 50 yards. Most of the time we aren't held to those standards. Usually we are trying to hit a 6" by 10" A zone. Front sight focus with both eyes open is very difficult for most. (Just look at the number of posts about putting tape on the glasses lens of their non-shooting eye) Front sight focus isn't natural. Target focus is.

The problem most shooters have with two eyed front sight focus is that when they bring their retinal focus to the front sight, their binocular focus (eye convergence ) goes along with it. This causes the problem of seeing two rear sights and two targets. Since front sight focus isn't natural, it's hard to quickly identify which is the correct target image. With target focus (both eyes open ) one sees two front sights and two rear sights. Since target focus is natural it's much easier to pick out the correct sight image and superimpose that image onto the target.

I'm not saying front sight focus is wrong. I'm just saying that target focus isn't necessarily wrong either.

[Dwight Stearns]

I agree with cha lee. My accuracy sucks when I shoot while my sights are in my peripheral vision. That's why I rarely shoot that way. I almost always shoot with my sights directly in my line of vision.

Dwight

[bountyhunter]

If you are looking at the target, with iron sights, you aren't calling your shots. It's point shooting. You can get by on close targets, but you are limiting the visual information you are receiving. If you are limiting the visual information, you are limiting your awareness.

That's why I more than once swore to not enter these threads anymore.

Indirect sighting is NOT "point shooting", it is absolutely looking through the sights and aligning with the sights, however they are not sharply focused.

There's no free lunch. If the sights are in perfect focus, the target is blurry and you lose almost all external (peripheral) vision shooting with one eye. With both eyes opened and focused on target, the sights are aligned in line of sight (dominat eye) in soft focus.

The question is: can a gun be accurately aimed using the latter technique? All I can say is, the answer must be yes because I have been doing it for about 20 years and do it every week at 7PM on Monday night in speed shooting league. And based on other posts, I am not the only one.

Use whatever gives you the best scores.

But understand, the time may come when a gun will be used to preserve your life and finishing second will be fatal. Having both eyes open and automatically having the gun sights come up to the dominant eye sight line (since you have done it a million times) is a distinct advantage. The reason is you retain 100% full field of vision in the non-dom eye effectively seeing the sights "superimposed" onto the target. First time I tried it I shot better and stopped getting headaches and eyestrain from squinting.

[bountyhunter]

I agree with cha lee. My accuracy sucks when I shoot while my sights are in my peripheral vision. That's why I rarely shoot that way. I almost always shoot with my sights directly in my line of vision.

Dwight

So do I, but have both eyes open. Put a black dot on the wall 50 feet away and stare at it. Keep focused on it. raise the gun until it is in sight line, it will automatically be in the dominat eye sight line. The black dot will still be perfect focus, the sight picture will be in soft focus aligned on the dot and a second gun image appears off line (ignore it).

That's how I sight a gun with my eyes wide open and locked on target.

[bountyhunter]

Front sight focus is more accurate than target focus but we are talking degrees here. Bullseye shooters have known for decades that for the utmost in accuracy, you have to focus on the front sight but bullseye shooters are worried about hitting a one inch X ring at 25 and 50 yards.

However, bullseye has a way of "compensating out" the error induced by the fact that the target black dot will be grossly out of focus from focusing on the front sight. I have shot a few bullseye leagues, and you adjust the sight elevation to hit the X when the sights are aligned and the top of the front sight is just brushing up against wherever you see the bottom of the black center dot on the target. So you are choosing to set the target's black center out of focus, then use the sights to sompensate for whatever errors that causes in sighting due to vison change (perception) of where the target black area is.

You can due exactly the same thing with the sights. If you are focused on target, the sight picture will still look like SOMETHING, it just won't look the same. And as you shoot and see the POI, you adjust to the different sight picture and center the shots or adjust the sights (if adjustable). The point is that sights in soft focus don't sudenly become unusable.

I happen to use a Merritt sighter which "cheats" some and helps focus vison both onsight and target, but it's not mandatory.

[Histate]

Thanks bountyhunter for clearing up some things for me. So target focus or indirect sighting is the method I use and u prefer and recommend it for fast acquire and shooting especially if extreme accuracy is not important (ex. Bullseye/ xring shooting)another question what is a Merritt slighter,type of red dot?

[toothguy]

Front sight focus is more accurate than target focus but we are talking degrees here. Bullseye shooters have known for decades that for the utmost in accuracy, you have to focus on the front sight but bullseye shooters are worried about hitting a one inch X ring at 25 and 50 yards.

However, bullseye has a way of "compensating out" the error induced by the fact that the target black dot will be grossly out of focus from focusing on the front sight. I have shot a few bullseye leagues, and you adjust the sight elevation to hit the X when the sights are aligned and the top of the front sight is just brushing up against wherever you see the bottom of the black center dot on the target. So you are choosing to set the target's black center out of focus, then use the sights to sompensate for whatever errors that causes in sighting due to vison change (perception) of where the target black area is.

You can due exactly the same thing with the sights. If you are focused on target, the sight picture will still look like SOMETHING, it just won't look the same. And as you shoot and see the POI, you adjust to the different sight picture and center the shots or adjust the sights (if adjustable). The point is that sights in soft focus don't sudenly become unusable.

I happen to use a Merritt sighter which "cheats" some and helps focus vison both onsight and target, but it's not mandatory.

bountyhunter, are you saying that you shoot Bullseye with a sharp target focus, call your shots and get good scores?

[jcarpenter82]

Both eyes open here too. I can't seen to use tthe left eye closed method effectively

[Dwight Stearns]

I don't know why you would want to stay out of these threads bountyhunter. What you said is very well stated and exactly correct. My only disagreement is with calling target focus indirect sighting when we bring the sights into alignment with our dominant eye. Target focus works for us and many others and if it works ......

Dwight

[Dwight Stearns]

I'll answer for bountyhunter histate. The merrit optical sighter is an attachment for your shooting glasses for bullseye shooting. It has an adjustable hole in it (like a camera

aperture). By adjusting the diameter if the hole it increases your visions depth of field helping you better focus on both the target and the front sight at the same time. It's used in bullseye shooting. Doesn't work in practical shooting though.

Dwight

[toothguy]

I don't know why you would want to stay out of these threads bountyhunter. What you said is very well stated and exactly correct. My only disagreement is with calling target focus indirect sighting when we bring the sights into alignment with our dominant eye. Target focus works for us and many others and if it works ......

Dwight

Since it's not possible to focus on the front sight and the target at the same time without a diopter (Merritt), if you are choosing to focus on the target you limit feed back on the fundamentals (sight alignment and trigger control). You can get away with these limitations if the targets are close or large.

[Dwight Stearns]

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. I can and do call my shots having good feedback on sight picture and trigger while focusing on the target. I do it at speed and my results speak for themselves. Again, if it works for you, whatever "it" is, do it. Even if you are told it won't work.

good shooting

Dwight

[toothguy]

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. I can and do call my shots having good feedback on sight picture and trigger while focusing on the target. I do it at speed and my results speak for themselves. Again, if it works for you, whatever "it" is, do it. Even if you are told it won't work.

good shooting

Dwight

My only motivation for posting here is to help and learn. What I have learned in our discussion is that we can disagree without getting mad and degrading the post. Thanks, Tim.

[Dwight Stearns]

Same here Tim. Good posts. Good debate.

Stay safe

Dwight

[Histate]

I don't know why you would want to stay out of these threads bountyhunter. What you said is very well stated and exactly correct. My only disagreement is with calling target focus indirect sighting when we bring the sights into alignment with our dominant eye. Target focus works for us and many others and if it works ......

Dwight

ok now I'm getting a little confused again so target focus is not the same as indirect sighting if so what is the difference.

I'll answer for bountyhunter histate. The merrit optical sighter is an attachment for your shooting glasses for bullseye shooting. It has an adjustable hole in it (like a camera

aperture). By adjusting the diameter if the hole it increases your visions depth of field helping you better focus on both the target and the front sight at the same time. It's used in bullseye shooting. Doesn't work in practical shooting though.

Dwight

Thanks for the explanation

[Dwight Stearns]

To me indirect sighting means the sights are not aligned with your shooting eye. By definition then direct sighting would mean the sights are aligned with your shooting eye without respect to point of focus. Point shooting or any shooting where the sights or gun are in your peripheral vision would be indirect sighting.

Dwight.

[Histate]

So u can have direct sighting (sights move to your dominant eye)with a target focus (sights will be blurry but still able to line up) would this be a good way to practice with both eyes open

Edited January 13, 2013 by Histate

[partyboy424]

Shot a small indoor match today. Only 4 stages, did 1 with one eye closed and 3 with both eyes opened. The first stage was both eyes open and target focus with the blurry but able to tell aligned sights. Had mostly A hits with good speed. On the second stage there was just a row of targets left to right touching each other with no shoots, fearing double vision I closed one eye, almost no A's (head shots for almost all of them). 3rd stage was leaning left and right of a barricade while seated, started with both open, as soon as I leaned over and was basically at a 45 degree angle, I started seeing double and closed an eye. 4th, with El Presidente, tried it with both eyes Open and focusing on my sights, spun around and brought the gun up, two targets and two rear sights. I shot at a target that wasn't there... Target focused on the next two and following 3 after the reload and had mostly A's and C's.

It's going to take a lot of work, but I definitely prefer both open Target Focus with a somewhat blurry sight picture (I do shot call, I can't do it with sight focus since I see doubles)