Onepocket Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Let them shoot ICOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Don't limit capacity to 8 limit major to 8 and revolvers can play too. I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Interesting the pro ops guys are already fearing the 1911. actually what I would like to avoid is another division full of custom double stack S_I type guns. I hadn't thought of single stacks specifically. What do other people think? Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Make it a 15 round capacity Let the single stack play all they want, but they have to fit in the box that Paul Hyland put forth. No problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Of the top three divisions (Open, Limited and Production), the high-cap 1911/2011 guns of SVI and STI dominate the first two divisions which account for just under half of our activity reports, though there are no details on the exact breakdown of gun-types within Open and Limited, there may be a significant number of Glocks, M&P etc. in Limited/L10 and to a lesser degree in Open. Single Stack 1911's count for about 12% of the activity in 2014. I think its reasonable to suspect that at least 50% of the guns in USPSA are of the 1911/2011 type, I don't think we need another 1911/2011 division. Production in 2014 reached about 28% of the activity reports, and Revolver about 3%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 So combine SS with Production? And then why not merge that with Limited right? . because mag capacity. i'm not seriously proposing to merge prod and ss, but it doesn't seem like an unreasonable idea. What you gain from a 1911 on the first (sa) shot you give back on skinny magazine reloads. Of course many 1911's have already been customized beyond what is ok in production, but then apparently so have many production guns, lol. I think if you had a 15-round capacity in purse-carry-optics or whatever its called, there would be no reason to exclude 1911's. It might allow more participation even tho people would know they were at a capacity disadvantage for some stages. But whatever. I just shoot what I shoot. All divisions are hider divisions. Ok then, new divisions: Open 10, Open 15, Open 140mm, and Open 170mm I do agree with you that Production is far from perfect. Maybe this new "slide mounted optics" division can be a testing ground for a way to create a better version of Production and can fix many of Production's flaws (of course then with the addition of the optic). It's probably a lot easier to test new rules/gun restrictions in this new division than trying to make major changes to Production. Especially since this will at first be a provisional division, they can test out rules and see how people try to implement them and make some changes before officially adopting a new division. Interesting the pro ops guys are already fearing the 1911. actually what I would like to avoid is another division full of custom double stack S_I type guns. I hadn't thought of single stacks specifically. What do other people think? Eric If this new division includes 1911s I would no longer be at all interested in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copecowboy22 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Combining SS and Pro would be fine with me. Leave the divisions exactly as they are now with the exception of allowing 8 major in pro guns.This I like. I already compare my scores to the production guys because the stages are shot the same way most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 If this new division includes 1911s I would no longer be at all interested in it. It sounds to me like you're saying a 1911 is so superior that even if it were at a 5 round capacity disadvantage (10 for a 9mm 1911 vs 15 for a plastic purse-carry-optics gun), everyone who didn't suck would just use a 1911.... Or have I misunderstood? I only think it makes sense to include 1911's if there actually are some with purse-carry-optics. I don't think they would be seriously competitive with glock or cz or tanfo purse guns, but I think this new division is going to need all the help it can get to avoid being a fiasco, so I would cast the net wide for carry/defense/purse guns with optics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtturn Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Dear lord. Is this still going on? There is already a production optics division. It's called open minor. I'm opposed to anything that will dilute the divisions further and decrease the pool of competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) If this new division includes 1911s I would no longer be at all interested in it. It sounds to me like you're saying a 1911 is so superior that even if it were at a 5 round capacity disadvantage (10 for a 9mm 1911 vs 15 for a plastic purse-carry-optics gun), everyone who didn't suck would just use a 1911.... Or have I misunderstood? I only think it makes sense to include 1911's if there actually are some with purse-carry-optics. I don't think they would be seriously competitive with glock or cz or tanfo purse guns, but I think this new division is going to need all the help it can get to avoid being a fiasco, so I would cast the net wide for carry/defense/purse guns with optics. I started typing my reply before I saw zhunter's suggestion of limiting 1911s to 10 rounds and allowing 15 rounds for "Production" type guns. In that case sure I guess I wouldn't care if 1911s are allowed because that's a significant disadvantage and I would be surprised if anyone chose a 1911 in that case. But if 1911s are allowed does that mean any single action gun is allowed? So now I can have a double stack single action gun with 15 rounds in the new purse carry optics ( ) division? Sounds like we're getting too close to Open...defeating the point of this new division. I really haven't put too much thought into this new division besides thinking it might be fun to try out, but I guess what I'd like is a division that's geared towards this current trend of slide mounted optics guns that's been growing in popularity in recent years, mostly aimed towards defensive use so far (I think everyone knows the types of guns I'm referring to by this, and I haven't seen any 1911s in this trend so far). Afterall, aren't these the types of guns that started the conversation for this new division, and now we're talking about including 1911s? I'd like for it to be a fairly low cost to entry compared to Open and Limited, don't want to see the winners of this division all shooting $2,000+ guns. I mean I don't care if you want to buy an expensive gun, but somehow make the rules such that a $2-3k gun isn't leagues ahead of a $1k gun in this division such as with maximum weight, minimum trigger pull or some rules along those lines. Like I said I haven't put this much thought into this before today and don't think I've participated at all yet in the discussions. But now that this new division might become a reality I suppose I am interested in having a voice (albeit a small one) in the process of shaping the division since I do have some interest in participating in it. And now I'm curious - what exactly will the process be for writing the rules for this new division? It's 100% up to the BOD? Which seems kind of funny to have them drafting it since a few months ago all of them were against the idea . Would they normally solicit input from members or just go at it on their own? Edited March 26, 2015 by Russell92 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I'm opposed to anything that will dilute the divisions further and decrease the pool of competition. We could get rid of L10, that would help a little Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Dear lord. Is this still going on? There is already a production optics division. It's called open minor. I'm opposed to anything that will dilute the divisions further and decrease the pool of competition. I think you better get over it, it's coming. Go shoot Open Minor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 With a provisional division, there is the option to 'tweak' things as we go, if a certain aspect of the proposal is not working then hopefully we can change it and iron out all the bugs before it becomes a formal division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I don't like the idea of making it anything other than a 10 round limit, that way it can play in every state not just most of them and it would be the same as production so you don't have to have ROs trying to remember what they need to count to. I also like the idea of including 1911's SS and Production are very competitive as it is and the prime market for the new division is always said to be older shooters and when I look at SS division I notice it trends more towards that demographic. Personally I would not care if I was competing with 2011s but I understand that many shooters don't feel that way. (Remember the world shoot where a 15rd Minor Da/Sa gun beat all the 19rd Major scoring S_Is unfortunately as much as we want to believe we can purchase better scores it's still the guy driving it that matters the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haraise Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Not just older shooters... people with small hands LIKE single stack a lot! Then there are just people who like the 1911. It's not unpopular with any age group. 1911 + 10 rounds of 9mm would be great with a milled Deltapoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 So basically what some of you really want is just Open 10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haraise Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I don't think anyone here is clamoring for compensators or magwells, let alone frame attached optics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 If SS 1911's were allowed, would the start hammer down? This is the issue. First shot DA on a long and/or partial target is a big difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 What if we made it plastic optic's? Make it 10 rounds minor, no comp and slide mounted optics on any plastic gun. Do what ever else you want. Keeps it simple, if you really want to draw new shooters you'll have to lose the production rules. The guys with this already on there gun probably stippled the grip or under cut the trigger guard and won't be able to play. So many people with so many different idea's of what it should be. Not going to be easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGMorden Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 What if we made it plastic optic's? Make it 10 rounds minor, no comp and slide mounted optics on any plastic gun. There are polymer framed 1911's out there. Also, it becomes a bit hard to define a "plastic" gun. I mean the entire grip of an STI 2011 is plastic with a very small metal frame that the slide rides on. There's not as much metal but even on a Glock the slide is riding on metal inserts to the slide. Make it that the serial numbered "frame" has to be plastic? You just disallowed the SIG P250 and SIG P320 - for both of those the serial numbered "frame" is a metal part that drops into a plain plastic shell. Plus I know the "official" division name is unlikely to be "Production Optics" but that seems to be the original intent, and CZ's and Tanfo's make up enough of Production at this point that it would be hard to exclude them from anything claiming to be for "stock" guns. Personally I dislike the whole idea, but the again I also have no interest in optics at all so I'm biased . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mosher Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I like either of these options: Option A: 10rd minor/ 8 major, allowing any factory produced gun,(ie traditional production guns, single stack 1911's, and revolvers, no double stack 2011s). No major rule rewrites, whatever gun you bring in conforms to the division it would usually otherwise fit in if it didn't have an optic. (ie. production has to meet production rules, single stack has to meet SS rules, revo the revo rules etc). The only exception is an optic milled into the slide. You essentially smush production, revo, and SS together and allow optics on them. Option B: 15rds minor scoring. Like modified division. Have a box. If it fits, it ships. The box has a little cutout to accept slide mounted optics. 9mm 2011s could explode here. If that's the worry, could limit to DA/SA or striker fired only like production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 MGM, It was just a idea, I probably wouldn't shoot it and don't think we need a new division. The problem I see is everyone says this is supposed to be a lower cost way to shoot a Dot. But under production rules you can spend 2k or built CZ or Tanfo, then get the slide milled and add a Dot. Now you've spent the same amount as the guy with a new Trubore shooting open. And the guy with the RMR on his glock that we claim to be after can't shoot because he under cut his trigger guard. How will we make the rules limiting enough to keep the cost down, but not so limiting to exclude shooters and restrict the growth of the division. Unless we don't care about the cost, in which case I say shoot open. Either way I guess it will be interesting to see what the BOD comes up with. I just hope it doesn't become a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 If SS 1911's were allowed, would the start hammer down? This is the issue. First shot DA on a long and/or partial target is a big difference only for people who don't practice. As i mentioned earlier, the slight advantage on the first shot would be more than made up for by the lower capacity (if 15 rds was chosen, which it probably won't be), and the more challenging singlestack reloads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) I like either of these options: Option A: 10rd minor/ 8 major, allowing any factory produced gun,(ie traditional production guns, single stack 1911's, and revolvers, no double stack 2011s). No major rule rewrites, whatever gun you bring in conforms to the division it would usually otherwise fit in if it didn't have an optic. (ie. production has to meet production rules, single stack has to meet SS rules, revo the revo rules etc). The only exception is an optic milled into the slide. You essentially smush production, revo, and SS together and allow optics on them. That actually sounds really intriguing and maybe even workable, especially as a provisional division. Cast the net wide with minimal muss and fuss and see what/who shows up. Good idea. My only concern with 8major/10minor is that it may turn into a situation where competitors feel they need to have 2 guns, or otherwise be able to choose major or minor depending on the match setup in order to be competitive. I've been seeing some of that sentiment in SS now Edited March 26, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 If SS 1911's were allowed, would the start hammer down? This is the issue. First shot DA on a long and/or partial target is a big difference not really, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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