Production optics

[ZackJones]

Btw, I'll be shooting a M&P C.O.R.E. and a DeltaPoint-2

Not until it's production legal. I'm in the same boat. I own one but use it to shoot open in steel challenge.

You know there's a possibility - as a pilot or provisional division add production optic division to steel challenge.

- Steel challenge is smaller community than USPSA so it wouldn't have a major impact on the larger USPSA matches (sectional / Area / Nationals).

- Steel challenge is a good intro to competitive shooting and may be a better place to introduce our CCW buddies to our shooting sports.

- On the other hand the community may be too small to collect enough data for USPSA to make a decision.

- Programming changes at HQ will have to be put in place regardless of where the provisional division is tested and there's no telling how long it would take USPSA to implement it.

As far as optic size and the box goes - if it fits shoot it. If you think there's an advantage to shooting a sub-compact Glock with a large optic have at it as long as the optic is mounted on the slide and it fits in a production-legal holster. I think there's sufficient requirements in place that will limit just how much gaming is done.

Does this pretty much summarize the proposed division:

- All current production rules remain intact (obviously a footnote or something would have to be added to account for minor modifications but that's a minor edit to the existing rules)

- Red Dot sights mounted on the slide only. Milling of the slide is permitted for the purpose of mounting a sight.

- Lasers are permitted provided the firearm with laser installed fits into a production-legal holster

- Flashlights are permitted provided the firearm with flashlight installed fits into a production-legal holster. (Personally I can't see any advantage of using a flashlight but I saw it mentioned previously so I'm throwing it in)

- Box to be modified to allow for optic to be mounted on slide.

- Weight allowance to be modified to permit published weight +5 ounces to account for optic weight (yeah I know someone may put an ounce of lead in the frame but so be it).

What did I miss?

[zhunter]

I figure by the time there is a provisional Production Optics Division my C.O.R.E. will be Production legal. In the mean time I'll be shooting Open Minor. I've only ever shot Limited until Single Stack came to be, then only shot SSTK.

I'll have to work on my 9,10

[bikerburgess]

Not until it's production legal. I'm in the same boat. I own one but use it to shoot open in steel challenge.

You know there's a possibility - as a pilot or provisional division add production optic division to steel challenge.

-

As far as optic size and the box goes - if it fits shoot it. If you think there's an advantage to shooting a sub-compact Glock with a large optic have at it as long as the optic is mounted on the slide and it fits in a production-legal holster. I think there's sufficient requirements in place that will limit just how much gaming is done.

Does this pretty much summarize the proposed division:

- All current production rules remain intact (obviously a footnote or something would have to be added to account for minor modifications but that's a minor edit to the existing rules)

- Red Dot sights mounted on the slide only. Milling of the slide is permitted for the purpose of mounting a sight.

- Lasers are permitted provided the firearm with laser installed fits into a production-legal holster

- Flashlights are permitted provided the firearm with flashlight installed fits into a production-legal holster. (Personally I can't see any advantage of using a flashlight but I saw it mentioned

why not let the holster restrict the optic mounting as well? I know there is nothing on the market today that would fit the holster but if someone came up with a way to do it it would be nice to let that be a option, I could see a well thought out compact frame mount being a better long term solution for games or carry, lets not make it illigal before we see what can be done.

[dillon]

Regarding the optics, another possibility is to establish a list of Production-approved optics. We already do this for the firearms allowed in this division. This could give competitors a bit of guidance in ensuring their combination fits the box.

[Nimitz]

This is why the "shoot it in Open" argument is, IMHO, ridiculous and insulting. These are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PLATFORMS. For some, not saying you, to continue to insinuate otherwise demonstrates a lack of reasoning skills or a sophomoric understanding of the issue.

I disagree completely with this assessment. Every part of it.

Care to try an explain? Chris seemed to hit the nail on the head exactly ....

[StraightUp_OG]

It is really disappointing that Chris and Nimitz find it best to present their augment with ad hominem attacks. This only proves the weakness in your arguments.

" demonstrates a lack of reasoning skills or a sophomoric understanding"

"Does anyone read before posting?"

"Same here, if you are not interested in shooting a PO division, fine -- then don't. But please get out of the way as well. "

The platforms are the same. Gun, bullets, magazines, optics. Plain and simple. I think it s fine that you want this new division but other peoples opinions are valid and to suggest that if we don't agree to shut up and get out of the way is insulting as well. It's saying that "I want this and what you want does not matter."

This discussion would be much better served if you could keep your emotions out of it. I will give my opinion again because it is just a valid as yours and it is that I think OPEN covers this setup and it is a fringe case that is not deserving of a division of its own.

Edited July 22, 2014 by StraightUp_OG

[ZackJones]

why not let the holster restrict the optic mounting as well? I know there is nothing on the market today that would fit the holster but if someone came up with a way to do it it would be nice to let that be a option, I could see a well thought out compact frame mount being a better long term solution for games or carry, lets not make it illigal before we see what can be done.

Good point. All optics regardless of type used must fit in a production-legal holster. That works for me.

[bikerburgess]

This is a honest question,

would you object to having a single stack 1911 compete against you with a optic on it in the same division as a GLOCK or CZ with an optic?

[BritinUSA]

This discussion would be much better served if you could keep your emotions out of it. I will give my opinion again because it is just a valid as yours and it is that I think OPEN covers this setup and it is a fringe case that is not deserving of a division of its own.

This sentiment has been posted a lot on this thread, I get it... there are some here that do not see the point and don't want this new division, I get it...

What the rest of us are trying to do is this; See if we can figure out a rule-set that would work for a Production/Optics division. Once we have figured out the rule-set then we can propose the new division, then the BOD can review it, the membership would have the option of providing feedback on the proposal and then the BOD can vote on it.

None of that can happen until we can figure out HOW to manage this division. If the majority that express an opinion do not want the new division then it probably won't happen anyway.

If you don't want this new division then you will get your chance for your voice to be heard when the BOD solicits feedback on the new division (which they are required to do). Until then there is not much point in commenting further in this thread if all you want to say is NO.

[ctay]

I will give my opinion again because it is just a valid as yours and it is that I think OPEN covers this setup and it is a fringe case that is not deserving of a division of its own.

Doesn't open cover every division? Can you make a case why we should have any other division? Wouldn't that exact case then serve to validate the call for Production Optics?

It has been said several times "show me the people shooting this before we set up a division for it". That is backwards to my mind. It is plainly evident that people that consistently shoot USPSA buy equipment that works best for their chosen division. A M&P Core is clearly not best for open - so clearly one should not expect to see many M&P's shooting at a USPSA match in open division. That doesn't mean that people wouldn't shoot an M&P Core if there was a division where it was a better choice.

Maybe we should answer this question: How many would purchase a Production Optics type gun where there a division for it? Wouldn't the addition of this option give more shooters more reasons to continue shooting USPSA? Wouldn't that also serve to make USPSA a better sport?

[zhunter]

This is a honest question,

would you object to having a single stack 1911 compete against you with a optic on it in the same division as a GLOCK or CZ with an optic?

The argument against is going to be single action trigger and major scoring. It has to all be minor scoring. Of course you can setup any 1911 for minor. So it's the single action trigger that is the real road block here. I would not think here is going to be much support.

[StraightUp_OG]

I am 100% for no divisions and run what you brung! But sadly those days are gone.

I have a gun that I could use in Prod Open if there were to be such a division but I doubt I would shoot but the occasional match with it so for me I am fine running it in open. At my club we have a ton of shooters and I just don't see or hear of people demanding a PO division or even see people with those setups.

The further dilution of other divisions where there are not enough to fill all that exist now just to accommodate a fringe case seems unnecessary. No reason that the opinions expressed here could not be tested. Run some club matches in each of the Areas for 2 months and have the MD's track the stats. If there is a real demand for the division then so be it.

I would be more than happy to be proved wrong but to create a division based off of conjecture and opinion of the handful of posters in this thread would be unjustified.

Edited July 22, 2014 by StraightUp_OG

[ctay]

I am 100% for no divisions and run what you brung! But sadly those days are gone.

I have a gun that I could use in Prod Open if there were to be such a division but I doubt I would shoot but the occasional match with it so for me I am fine running it in open. At my club we have a ton of shooters and I just don't see or hear of people demanding a PO division or even see people with those setups.

The further dilution of other divisions where there are not enough to fill all that exist now just to accommodate a fringe case seems unnecessary. No reason that the opinions expressed here could not be tested. Run some club matches in each of the Areas for 2 months and have the MD's track the stats. If there is a real demand for the division then so be it.

I would be more than happy to be proved wrong but to create a division based off of conjecture and opinion of the handful of posters in this thread would be unjustified.

I think that it is a contradiction to say both there is no demand and that it would dilute existing divisions. I do agree that to create a permanent division based solely on internet discussion would be a bad move. Rather, I would like to see a provisional set of rules put out and have this run in provisional status for a year or two. See the impact and make a decision based on that.

[bikerburgess]

I can see the objection to Major scoring (even if I don't agree with it I will take 10 minor over 8 major every time) but I don't see the single action trigger as a big issue, XD's and M+P's can be set up with incredible triggers that are as good as those in 1911's I dont buy that a 2lb trigger in a 1911 is fundamentally better than a 2lb trigger in a plastic gun.

[StraightUp_OG]

I am down with provisional.

The dilute vs demand holds true If there is no demand from new shooters that have yet to participate in the division but attracts current shooters from other divisions. The point I keep reading is this will grow the sport, well it won't if all we have is current member division defections.

[BritinUSA]

So here is a box that is the same size as the existing Production Box (the gun is not to scale).

By adding a cutout for the scope we could actually use the same box for both Production and Production Optics by simply rotating the box so the opening is at the top for Prod Optics and at the bottom for Production.

[zhunter]

So here is a box that is the same size as the existing Production Box (the gun is not to scale).

By adding a cutout for the scope we could actually use the same box for both Production and Production Optics by simply rotating the box so the opening is at the top for Prod Optics and at the bottom for Production.

ProdOptics Box 1.pngProdOptics Box 2.png

Bingo, I mentioned the concept of the cutout (different wording) several pages ago, but lack the skillz to create the image you did.

I think most are happy to have PO as provisional for two years and see how it goes. Matter of fact I think that is the right thing to do

[BritinUSA]

Bingo, I mentioned the concept of the cutout (different wording) several pages ago, but lack the skillz to create the image you did.

That's where I got the idea from, the concept of just rotating it occurred after I created the first image.

[BritinUSA]

So if we use this box idea then we get this:

7. Maximum Size - Yes, handgun with empty magazine inserted must fit wholly within a box with internal dimensions of 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8” (tolerance +1/16”, -0”) (8.938”x6”x1.625”) (227.01mmx152.40mmx41.28mm). There is a 4" or 100mm opening in the top right edge to accommodate a scope.

13. Optical/electronic sights permitted - Yes.

18. Weight - Within five (5) ounces of factory specification.

Changes are shown in BOLD

If we don't specify the type of sight then lasers would also be viable as long as they fit inside the existing box.

[bikerburgess]

On the weight what do we gain by using production list weight plus 5 oz over having a set division maximum?

[BritinUSA]

On the weight what do we gain by using production list weight plus 5 oz over having a set division maximum?

I think it would help to keep the guns as stock as possible. If we had a division maximum then purchase the lightest gun and then install a tungsten guide rod in there to seriously reduce muzzle-flip.

The goal was to give the competitor enough leeway on the weight to install a scope not drastically alter the handling characteristics of the gun.

[seanc]

This is a honest question,

would you object to having a single stack 1911 compete against you with a optic on it in the same division as a GLOCK or CZ with an optic?

This is a roundabout way of asking if it should be OK for 1911's scoring minor should be allowed in production.

[BritinUSA]

This is a honest question,

would you object to having a single stack 1911 compete against you with a optic on it in the same division as a GLOCK or CZ with an optic?

This is a roundabout way of asking if it should be OK for 1911's scoring minor should be allowed in production.

I think the only 1911 that is permitted in Production Division is the Para LDA, because it is Double-Action.

Edited July 22, 2014 by BritinUSA

[kmca]

USPSA does a good job of trying to attract junior shooters, but when I look around the gun clubs, there are far more senior and super senior shooters than juniors. I'm all for anything that we an do to attract/retain "older" shooters.

[bikerburgess]

This is a honest question,

would you object to having a single stack 1911 compete against you with a optic on it in the same division as a GLOCK or CZ with an optic?

This is a roundabout way of asking if it should be OK for 1911's scoring minor should be allowed in production.

not really, I think production is too popular as it is for any real reforms to the complicated rules it has. what I AM saying is if we start a new division for guns with optics it should not be limited to only the production gun list. while there is a small chance of getting a new division at all I am sure the chances of getting two or three is zero so if we only get one we should make it as inclusive as possible. I believe that single stack and production guns are very competitive with each other, neither one is more deserving of a optics division, we wont get a new division for each platform so lets make one division where both can play on a level playing field.

the thing I think most would be afraid of is having to compete against 2011's (unless your name is Vogel then you just shoot your glock and win anyway) I understand that fear, I personally don't think it is valid but I understand