ar choice?

[richard franklin]

hi,what rock river ar would you think for 3 gun with most shots under 300yds?i was looking at the varmint eop 18 or 20in.,any help would be great.thank you!

[Zak Smith]

Just my opinion:

Anything heavier than Hbar profile is a waste. Even Hbar is a little overkill for 3Gun. Here's what to consider when choosing a barrel:

1. twist. if you want to shoot 75-77gr bullets, get a 1:8, otherwise 1:9

2. type of gas system. There are three: carbine, mid-length, and rifle length. The rifle length is the mildest operating, the midlength next, and the carbine system will upset the gun the most. A rifle-length gas system limits you to a barrel no shorter than 17". If you get a 16" barrel, definitely get the mid-length gas system.

3. length: some cheap ammo won't make minor in a 16" barrel. 68gr or heavier will, no problem.

4. muzzle attachment / comp. For 3Gun, you want an effective compensator. JP's BC comp, Benny Hill's comp, the MSTN QC comp, and the Miculek comp are all good. Figure out how you want to attach it.

[Chriss Grube]

Actually with the PF drop most any .223 ammo will make major.

[Larry White]

Minor Chris minor.

[rhino]

When I go to three gun matches, it seems like the order of places is frequently decided by whose guns work and whose don't.

Therefore, my new catchall theory on ARs for 3-Gun is that they must meet the following criteria:

1. It must function 100%

2. It must always function properly

3. It must be 100% reliable

4. It has to work every time you pull the trigger

5. Get one that always goes "bang!"

Pretty much everything else is ... details.

Rock River builds great rifles, but you should consider DPMS too. For one thing, they strongly support our shooting sports and the other thing is that they actually manufacture a lot of the components the other companies use to build guns.

[Chriss Grube]

I'm really surprised at the number of AR's that puke at a match. The ELS 3 gun I saw a bunch die. I ran a Bushy for a couple years never had a problem. My great geewhiz JP puked at the Topton Rifle match. (mag catch wasn't fit right and held the mags to high) Fixed that with a file real quick. Most of the guns that I saw die had all kinds of extra crap hanging on them, gun sucked but damn it looked tactical! The best is the guys running wolf ammo and wondering why the gun went TU! The guys I shot with didn't have any problems. JP, and 2 Olympic arms, Fed xm193 and PMC ammo. RR, BM, Olympic, JP all make good rifles. Pick one that is in your price range, feed it good ammo with decent mags and have fun.

[EricW]

Whatever you do, get your rifle BUILT, don't buy off the shelf. Unless you go JP or Clark, etc. out of the chute, you'll be buying parts twice and tossing the old set away. Last I read on here, Benny had spectacularly good pricing on a custom-built RRA setup. If Benny sets up his rifle triggers like his 1911 triggers, you'll be a happy camper.

[George]

Just finished the RM3G and watched several competitors suffer rifle problems. There was a one shot drop to start, a failure to extract in the middle of a hoser stage, a poof round filling a chamber with powder and not allowing the bolt to go into battery during the team event (thankfully the round cleared the barrel). But other than that, it seemed that 90+ percent of 180 competitors rifles ran flawlessly for the entire match. I myself have seldom seen more than a small percentage of competitors suffer rifle problems at most of the large matches I go to. I think rifle function is directly related to the competitors experience in the care and feeding of a precision long gun.

I do know that I wind up shootin‘ with a pretty tuff crowd a lot of the time and most of those folks work real hard at making their stuff reliable in all situations. Knock on wood, I have suffered few rifle function problems over the many years that I have been shooting competitively. Once I figured out what AR’s want, it has been relatively easy to stay on the good side of the function curve.

What do AR’s want you may ask.

Clean, properly gauged ammo with enough oomph to push the gas system properly

Quality magazines with quality followers

Clean chamber and properly lubed bolt/carrier.

Periodic replacement of extractor spring/bushing and bolt gas rings

If a rifle is properly built all the above will guarantee functioning almost all of the time in almost any conditions.

Most manufacturers make a good product, but if you are going to shoot 3 gun, buy from one of the vendors that is really out there supporting 3 gun competition. Here is a quick list of the good guys that I can think of (my apologies if missed anyone). The list is in alphabetical order and all are capable of providing a high quality AR-15 type rifle.

Cavalry Arms

DPMS

JP Rifles

Triangle Shooting Sports

--

Regards,

Edited August 23, 2004 by George

[Larry White]

If I wanted a AR I would call Benny and get a RRA lower with a JP trigger, a DPMS upper reciever, wilson air guaged 20in barrel with whichever twist you want, Bennys comp, carbonfiber tube, and a 1 3/4x5 simmons scope. Come to think of it thats what I did and and thats what I got ( except I have a DPMS lower, no diffrence). It has never failed, not at Reno, not at San Anglo or any other dirty, nasty place I ever drug it. It looks good enough for what it is, goes bang every time and is way more accurate than I can ever shoot it. Like George said, clean ammo, good mags, a little cleaning and lots of lube, pull the trigger. Life is good. Larry

[rhino]

Re: what ARs want ...

They also like to have their bolt carriers WET (with lube) under most conditions. Most malfunctions I've seen have been related to either a dry bolt carrier, or bad magazines.

[Jasonub]

rhino, i have an m16 and would like to ask if i can put grease instead of oil on the outside of the bolt? Preferrably slide glide.

thanls

[Larry White]

Grease will slow the cycle speed down and cause all sorts of crap to happen. 10w30 mobil one. Larry

[George]

I’m with Larry on the grease thing. It will work, sometimes, sometimes not. Stick with thinner lubricants. I don’t drench things, the only places that need lube is where things rub. Most of the carrier doesn’t contact the inside of the upper receiver. Look at the sides of the carrier key and you will see where most of the wear happens. I also lightly lube the locking lugs rear surfaces (that’s where they mate with the barrel extension) and the bolt and rings. I use a dedicated gun lube that is about the same consistency as motor oil which also works well as Larry mentioned (it doesn’t have to be Mobil 1, but it should be a good high temp detergent type oil). Too wet and they just pick up dust, just enough is all you really need if you put the lube in the right places.

It is OK to put a medium to light grease in the recoil tube around the damper and spring. Not so much that it get’s hydraulic, just a light enough coat to keep things from being “sproingy“.

--

Regards

Edited August 23, 2004 by George

[Jasonub]

thanks guys

[rhino]

rhino, i have an m16 and would like to ask if i can put grease instead of oil on the outside of the bolt? Preferrably slide glide.

Jason ... like the others said, I would avoid grease if you can on the bolt carrier. Any form of CLP works great ... mil-spec CLP (like Royco 634), BreakFree, or FP-10. I think FP-10 is the best of the breed.

If you have to use grease, use it very, very sparingly. Only use a small amount, rub it around with your finger, and wipe most of it back off. It should work okay for a few hundred rounds (long enough for a tense social situation), but you never know.

In the Philippines, I think keeping it wet with FP-10 or CLP is the best way to go. If your gun is otherwise reliable and you have good magazines, you should be able to go a LOT of rounds just by adding lube and maybe brushing the chamber ever thousand rounds or so.

If you were in Iraq or somewhere with similar conditions (sand the consistency of talcum powder), you might want to try something else. The problem is, everyone who has run an AR in the SW Asian desert has a different idea of what it takes to make it run there. Some say run it dry, some use CLP sparingly, some use dry graphite, some use a very thin coating of TW25B grease. Daily cleaning is probably the most important factor over there, regardless of the lubrication scheme.

And no matter where you are, keep the dust cover closed when you're not firing! Obviously during a match you may be required to have it open, but for other purposes, if you're not pulling the trigger, the dust cover should be closed. In classes I've taken, when you're done firing, we always do the following procedure:

1. Scan the "threats" in front and either side

2. Visually check to see if the bolt is in battery

3. Reload if necessary

4. Close the dust cover

5. Safety "on"

6. Sling it

The dust cover is your friend!

[EricW]

Slide Glide is awesome stuff, but Glide and AR's don't mix. If you're a fan of grease, use white lithium grease. Otherwise, use oil.

BTDTGTTS

[Chriss Grube]

Actually CLP sucks, just ask onyone who has used it in the Sandbox. It attracts grit and grime. Most of the guys have switched to Militec and the malf's have gone way down.

[rhino]

Actually CLP sucks, just ask onyone who has used it in the Sandbox. It attracts grit and grime. Most of the guys have switched to Militec and the malf's have gone way down.

I've asked many people who have used it and other lubes "in the sandbox," both in person and online. Their answers for "what works" are all over the board. The people with whom I've discussed this in person who carry M249s and M240s seems to favor the dry graphite, though. I've not met anyone in person who use Militec, but I know a lot of people online (not "in the sandbox") who are sold based on the "ads."

CLP and similar lubes need to be used very sparingly in those conditions. My buddy who is heading back for his third contract job in Iraq on Wednesday saw a lot of guys using TW25B with good results, but you can't use too much.

No lubricant "attracts" grit and grime. It might stick to it, and it might make a nice little sludge in there, but lubricants do not have some sort of mystical force that "attracts" debris.

Again, keeping the dust cover closed is your friend. If you're in the SW Asian desert, you probably need to clean your bolt carrier and relube (sparingly) every day.

[Jasonub]

thanks Guys

[Chriss Grube]

Rhino,

I still have a bunch of friends that are in the Corps and they are all using Militec. No jams. Closing the dust cover helps but that crap is real fine and still gets in. We knew CLP sucked ass 20 years ago and it hasn't changed. Militec isn't just hype. It is the only lube my Dept. issues and we tried a ton of different lubes.

[Bear1142]

Rhino,

The problem with CLP is that is breaks down very fast. Try this out. Take some CLP and put it in a tiny, clear bottle or oil dispenser. In a very short time the CLP will separate into two substances. This is why CLP comes in a black bottle, so you don't see this. If it does this in the bottle it will do it on your rifle and parts, reducing it's effectiveness. I would consider some other products.

Erik

[rhino]

The problem with CLP is that is breaks down very fast. Try this out. Take some CLP and put it in a tiny, clear bottle or oil dispenser. In a very short time the CLP will separate into two substances. This is why CLP comes in a black bottle, so you don't see this. If it does this in the bottle it will do it on your rifle and parts, reducing it's effectiveness. I would consider some other products.

Erik:

That sounds like BreakFree ... it has (or at least had) Teflon.

The military specs for CLP omitted the Teflon years ago. Royco 634 does not have it, and I'm not sure if the latest version of BreakFree does or not. FP-10 never had Teflon.

It's not really a "break down," but just the Teflon particles settling to the bottom. Teflon is not soluble in significant amounts in either the oil carrier or the solvent in the CLP. It's called a "suspension." The same thing happens with non-CLP lubes like TetraLube Oil and TW2500 Oil, which are outstanding lubricants. In any case, the Teflon particles will settle next to the metal when in use, which is where you want them. In the bottle, all you have to do is shake it before you use it.

My Bushmasters and Colt will run indefinitely with TW2500 or TetraOil. They seem to be doing the same with FP-10 and BreakFree. I only use my Royco 634 for cleaning stuff.

[Kingman]

I use firepower on my open gun and am going to use it on my AR unless it doesn't like it for some reason.

Oh Yeh, just bought a bushmaster v match 16" Going with an ATN on top, ADCO Cmore nockoff on the handgaurd and a big freakin muzzle break. OPEN is all I need to know.

[chp5]

[

My buddy who is heading back for his third contract job in Iraq on Wednesday saw a lot of guys using TW25B with good results, but you can't use too much.

Isn't TW25B a grease?

[rhino]

Isn't TW25B a grease?

Yeah, which is why you have to use just the tiniest amount possible, smear it around, then wipe off the excess.

I use TW25B on my carry pistols without reservation, but I don't think I would use it on an AR bolt carrier if I had a viable choice. I think that in some cases, it may be the least of evils.