Custom Shop guns in production

[ipsc1]

Some of the points in various threads have got me curious. Some OFMs have custom shops, the bottom line in production has been if the factory offers it for that model, you are good to go, ... but is there some point at which a factory custom shop can pass that makes the pistol illegal for production, ignoring the obvious, comps, ports,optics and trigger weights.

I'm looking at 3 points:

1. the interpretation of 19.1 flatly prohibits certain cosmetic modifications, but what if it is the factory custom shop making those modifications. I see the Tanfoglio shop offers engraving services, perhaps they could engrave go faster stripes. Would the answer change if they engraved "Glocks Rule" on the slide

2. at some point Glock did not offer Heinie sights on their pistols, then someone ordered some in that configuration and they became legal in production division. So would that first pistol in that configuration have been legal? If I or any other person with enough money can convince the OFM to do something special with a pistol at the factory and/or OFM custom shop, does that create the precedent for a factory offered option?

3. If an OFM offers a blued and a chromed version of the same pistol,does chroming a blued slide violate 19.1, and if not would the chroming have to take place at an OFM custom shop.

ipsc1

[Vince Pinto]

1. the interpretation of 19.1 flatly prohibits certain cosmetic modifications, ...<snip>

No, it doesn't. It prohibits competitors from making modifications to original parts and components offered by the OFM.

<glue>... but what if it is the factory custom shop making those modifications.

If the custom shop is part of the OFM, then they are not modifications. They are factory options.

2. at some point Glock did not offer Heinie sights on their pistols, then someone ordered some in that configuration and they became legal in production division.

Incorrect assumption. The Heinie sights were already legal before Glock offered them as a factory option. See Point 20.2.

3.  If an OFM offers a blued and a chromed version of the same pistol, does chroming a blued slide violate 19.1, and if not would the chroming have to take place at an OFM custom shop.

If the custom shop is part of the OFM, then blued and/or chromed versions of the same pistol are not modifications. They are factory options. For example, see the approved gun list under Beretta, where "Inox" versions are specifically mentioned. Glock, on the other hand, do not offer chromed versions of their pistols.

Hope this helps.

[bobert1]

Wasn't ther something avout a 500 gun run ?

[Vince Pinto]

Wasn't ther something avout a 500 gun run ?

Never under IPSC rules. The USPSA version of PD previously required "2,000 produced in one year", but that criteria has apparently been dropped from the incoming (2004) rulebook.

[davidwiz]

USPSA Production Rules state that you can change the sights, as long as it is a square notch and post. Appendix E US Divisons - Production, pg. 92, subparagraph h. From my reading, it says nothing about what sights were offered from the factory.

[Flexmoney]

I vote that IPSC change the name of the Division to "non-single action".

[Jim Norman]

So if Glock or Sig or anyone else offers through their inhouse shop a one unit of a total race version of a gun it is legal (assuming it is legal in Production to begin with) but if Joe's gunsmith shop does the same thing it is not legal. Sounds a lot like NJ politics. Why can't we have a rule that says as USPSA did, that there must be X hundred or thousand built in that configuaration, exactly and offered for sale in the configuration. Now, if the custom shop wants to chrome a gun, it will have to run X many before anyone can shoot it which will make it a "Production" gun.

Otherwise, I am with Flex, change the name to the "Anything except SA Division" and drop the pretense of liimited modifications.

Jim Norman

[Vince Pinto]

So if Glock or Sig or anyone else offers through their inhouse shop a one unit of a total race version of a gun it is legal (assuming it is legal in Production to begin with) but if Joe's gunsmith shop does the same thing it is not legal.

Um, no. This is why we have an approved gun list, whereby IPSC determines whether or not a particular make, model and configuration is suitable for approval. Unless we can somehow get magical powers to create an "IPSC IRS" and audit the books of gun manufacturers, relying on them to merely declare they have produced X number of guns is not considered to be a satisfactory solution.

This is why, for example, no gun is approved unless we can see an actual manufacturer's catalogue and/or price list showing that the gun is, in fact, in general production. If it is, and if it meets the Production Division criteria, it gets listed. Simple, really.

[Jim Norman]

So, If Glock offers only one chromed gun, but put it in their catalog and they built said gun in their custom shop, yo would or would not allow it?

The gun say a G-17 is on the list. It meets all the criteria. It is "offered" as a OEM option in chrome. What is the ruling?

Earlier you said

"If the custom shop is part of the OFM, then they are not modifications. They are factory options."

Then you said:

"Um, no. This is why we have an approved gun list, whereby IPSC determines whether or not a particular make, model and configuration is suitable for approval. Unless we can somehow get magical powers to create an "IPSC IRS" and audit the books of gun manufacturers, relying on them to merely declare they have produced X number of guns is not considered to be a satisfactory solution.

This is why, for example, no gun is approved unless we can see an actual manufacturer's catalogue and/or price list showing that the gun is, in fact, in general production. If it is, and if it meets the Production Division criteria, it gets listed. Simple, really. "

So which is it? Can the inhouse custom shop by inclusion in the catalog of offered options alter what is available and what we can do to a gun? If I got Glock as an example (and I can't actually do this, but maybe someone could) to offer a hardchrome slide as an option, even though no one ever boughtone, you would approve it? Or no, you would not?

Jim Norman

[Vince Pinto]

So, If Glock offers only one chromed gun, but put it in their catalog and they built said gun in their custom shop, yo would or would not allow it? The gun say a G-17 is on the list. It meets all the criteria. It is "offered" as a OEM option in chrome. What is the ruling?

You can play hypothetical (and argumentative) "What if?" games until the cows come home, but that's not how the IPSC Production Committee operates. We consider each case on it's merits.

The bottom line is that unless and until a particular make, model & configuration handgun actually appears on the approved gun list, it's not approved.

[Jim Norman]

<glue>... but what if it is the factory custom shop making those modifications.

If the custom shop is part of the OFM, then they are not modifications. They are factory options.

So then this earlier statement by you is in error. If the OFM (original Factory manufacturere?) custom shop offeres the gun in a particular configuration, it is not allowed?

Sorry, but I really have a problem understanding this. How can it be both ways? If the Custom Shop offers it it is a Factory Option, but it is still not allowed?

QUOTE (ipsc1 @ Aug 20 2004, 10:08 PM)

3. If an OFM offers a blued and a chromed version of the same pistol, does chroming a blued slide violate 19.1, and if not would the chroming have to take place at an OFM custom shop.

If the custom shop is part of the OFM, then blued and/or chromed versions of the same pistol are not modifications. They are factory options. For example, see the approved gun list under Beretta, where "Inox" versions are specifically mentioned. Glock, on the other hand, do not offer chromed versions of their pistols.

Please tell us Which is it? Allowed modification or disallowed?

[Vince Pinto]

Sorry, but I really have a problem understanding this. How can it be both ways? If the Custom Shop offers it it is a Factory Option, but it is still not allowed?

Below are the two comments I made earlier, with identical words shown in red bold, and expanded/illustrative words shown in blue bold:

If the custom shop is part of the OFM, then they are not modifications. They are factory options.

If the custom shop is part of the OFM, then blued and/or chromed versions of the same pistol are not modifications. They are factory options.

Let me know which part of the above confuses you and I'll try to help you understand.

[.40AET]

Hey doc, pass the anesthetic. (Curley passes large hammer to Moe)

Boys, give with the anesthetic. (Patient quickly goes to sleep for many hours and forgets all of the silliness of the day.)

[Chriss Grube]

Is the Springfield XD Custom shop gun legal for USPSA Production? If so that is going to be the gun to shoot.

[driver8M3]

Is the Springfield XD Custom shop gun legal for USPSA Production? If so that is going to be the gun to shoot.

i thought the glock 34 was THE gun to shoot in production.

[Chriss Grube]

Go check out the custom shop XD then tell me the tupperware is the gun. It's got as many mods as most limited guns. Built in magwell, beavertail mod., etc.

[Nik Habicht]

Can't find the Custom Shop XD on the web. Happily shot the plastic fantastic in OB's match today. Continue to believe that it's the gun for me ---- just like I'm convinced that two-wheel drive trucks are o.k. for most of Joisey......

I continue to think that shooters problems are more software related than that they are hardware issues......

[Jim Norman]

Vince,

It may be me, but you seem to be contradicting yourself here.

You have said:

If the custom shop is part of the OFM, then they are not modifications. They are factory options.

And you have said:

we have an approved gun list, whereby IPSC determines whether or not a particular make, model and configuration is suitable for approval.

This is why, for example, no gun is approved unless we can see an actual manufacturer's catalogue and/or price list showing that the gun is, in fact, in general production. If it is, and if it meets the Production Division criteria, it gets listed. Simple, really.

End Quoted Posts

Now, can you see that there is a difference here? In item One you say IF the OFM makes the modification it is in reality an OPTION and is allowable and then in item two you say if it is not on the list and approved, it is not allowable. Which is it? Are you saying that the OFM Custom Shop cannot modify a gun or that they can, but only if all of the available modifications/options are listed and pre-approved? This would mean that if I called GLaock and asked them to chrome a slide, as an example and they agreed, yo would A) Approve it as an OPTION since the OFM Custom shop provided it, or BG) Disallow it, even though is was OFM because it was not in the catalog and price list and IPSC had not pre-approved it? Your answers seem to be contradictory

Jim

Jim

[driver8M3]

i'm not dogging the XD...i dont even know anything about it. never shot anything but a glock. i was just kidding around about the G34 b/c sevigny uses it. i'm sure he'd do just as well with the XD...maybe even better.

[Vince Pinto]

In item One you say IF the OFM makes the modification it is in reality an OPTION and is allowable and then in item two you say if it is not on the list and approved, it is not allowable.

Huh? Say what?? How can it be "not on the list and approved"??? Never mind ..... let's deal with an actual case.

When the Glock 17 was approved for IPSC Production Division, it was available in just one colour - black - but now you can buy the same gun from Glock in OD Green. This is a non-issue, because the alternate colour receiver is a factory option which only changes the appearance of the gun, not the configuration. Hence, if you have a garden-variety black Glock but you want to change your receiver to the OD Green version, knock yourself out. What you cannot do is (for argument's sake), just paint your old Glock "OD Green", because that is an illegal modification.

Notice the difference between a factory option and a "Home Improvements" modification (with apologies to Tim Allen)?

But let's take it one step further. Let's say your old black Glock 17 has neither finger grooves nor the accessory rail. Since your shiny new OD Green receiver will definitely come with the finger grooves and accessory rail, again no problem. Why? Because it's a factory option for the G17, not a "Home Improvements" modification.

"But, but what about genuine, official Glock '+2' basepads???", I hear you scream with indignance. Well, despite those being a factory option, they are specifically prohibited so, no, you cannot use them even if you live in, say, The Philippines, where a brand new Glock is usually supplied with "+2" basepads.

[Chriss Grube]

Nik,

It was on the catalog they had in the shooters bags at the A8. I looked but didn't see it on the website.

[Jim Norman]

Vince,

Two things. First Not on the list and [not} allowed is how I expect that was to be read. I think you realize that.

Two, I understand, but don't agree with the color change. IF Glock or anyone else offer a gun in a particular finsih, why can't I refinish my gun in that new finish?

As a hypothetical,

If Glock were to offer a G17 with a hard chrome slide AND IPSC or USPSA or both were to aprove it, would it then be legal to when refinisihing my G17 to chrome the slide?

In other words;

I can replace my Factory sights with non factory, never instaled ever by the factory sights as long as the configuarion meets the rule, Notch & Post, but if the factory offers a particular easy clean finish and I want to refinish my gun in that EXACT finish, it would be disallowed? Seems that there is a great oppurtunity for Logic 101 here. It is this type of rule that send people away from this sport.

Jim

Jim

[Vince Pinto]

Two, I understand, but don't agree with the color change. IF Glock or anyone else offer a gun in a particular finsih, why can't I refinish my gun in that new finish?

Because (1) you painting the outside of the gun (e.g. a DIY prototype) is not the same as an OFM process (i.e. an identical option available to all comers), and (2) because that's the rule.

It is this type of rule that send people away from this sport.

You must have a different set of statistics to mine. In any case, I don't know of anybody who quit IPSC because they couldn't change the colour of their gun.

POSTSCRIPT: Remember that the USPSA version of Production Division is quite different to the original IPSC Production Division. If you want to have the words "20.5 External modifications other than sights not allowed" removed, you should contact the USPSA BOD.

[Vlad]

I don't really have a horse in this race and I see the points of both Vince and Jim, however I have a different question. Lets say that Glock offers a chromed slide. According to Vince, I can't buy a tenifer Glock and send it to an aftermarket shop and have it chromed. I have two questions:

1) Can I send it to Glock to have it refinished? Lets say that Glock doesn't plate in house and ships the slide to a contractor. Can I contact the contrator directly. If no then what is the difference, practically or legaly?

2) Lets say that I send my slide to third party to have it chromed and then I go shoot a big match. How will anyone know if the gun was plated by Glock or someone else. Even if you can tell apart the finishes, on who does the burden of proof rest? How can we be sure that all factory jobs look the same? Most third party shops do better finishes then factories anyway. I suppose you can ask for copies of workorders or shopping info, but who brings those in their range bag? Maybe the factory keep records or maybe it doesn't?

What I'm saying here is that as far as I can tell these rules are not enforcable, thus they are more an honor code. I'm ok with that, but it seems to me that people who want to break these rules will, and there isnt much anyone can do about it.

If I am wrong, please let me know. I honestly don't care about the issue itself, I'm just trying to understand the system.

Vlad

[Vince Pinto]

What I'm saying here is that as far as I can tell these rules are not enforcable, thus they are more an honor code. I'm ok with that, but it seems to me that people who want to break these rules will, and there isnt much anyone can do about it. If I am wrong, please let me know. I honestly don't care about the issue itself, I'm just trying to understand the system.

To make things simpler, why don't we talk about Beretta for a moment, instead of Glock? This is because from Beretta you can buy a garden-variety version Model 92FS or you can buy an "Inox" version of the same gun. If so, I believe your question would then be:

"I have a Beretta 92FS in black. I want to change it to a satin chrome finish. Since Beretta offer a satin chrome finish (which they call an "Inox" version), can I send my gun to my local gun smith to have him apply a similar finish?". The answer is no, at least under IPSC rules (I suspect, but cannot confirm, that the USPSA would issue a similar ruling, in view of Point 20.5 of USPSA Production Division).

The reason? Once again we're back to Production Division NOT being a "DIY" division. Nobody forces you to shoot PD but, if you do, then you must comply with PD rules which were written, first and foremost, to exclude SAO guns, but we also didn't want PD to become yet another "tinkerer's paradise". This is why very few "DIY" modifications are permitted (and IPSC is much stricter than the USPSA!).

As far as enforcement is concerned, I'm extremely well travelled in IPSC circles, but I've yet to come across any enforcement issues. Sure, the honour system is generally our first line of defence, but that's also true of ammo too, right? In the vast majority of cases, you only have a maximum of 8 rounds tested at chrono but, more often than not, it's usually just half that amount. Moreover, I can personally attest that of the numerous rules questions I get asked every week, at least 75% of those are in respect of Production Division.

Why? Because IPSC competitors are essentially good and honest people, and they ask questions because they don't want to break the rules, even inadvertently, and I invariably get a huge spike of PD rules questions right before a major match (in fact, I was going positively nuts answering questions last week, because of the European Championships in the Czech Republic this week!!).

I hope this answers your question.