JFlowers Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 This is one of the reasons I like to get my stage built early at majors. If possible, even set it up a couple of months earlier at a local. Once I get setup at majors like the SC Sectional, I like certain people to airgun thru it. I know they will bend, twist, and break thru any hole in the stage. A couple of rounds with them and we usually have the stage tweaked out. And yes, sometimes a stage that looks good on paper, reviews well by RM, MD, and NROI will have issues when setup. And sometimes those issue mean major changes on the ground. And RMs and MDs try very hard not to throw out stages and make a match you just drove 3 hours and spent lots of $$$ to shoot shorter than it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) I guess my issue was this, I wasn't there for how this went down, however - the target was WIDE OPEN from WITHIN the fault lines - so surely it was seen when they set it up. Instead of saying - lets a) use a door to activate these targets or B ) lets move the stomp box so instead of being RIGHT infront of the port if they want to shoot the static target first it will be a Risk / Reward thing - NO - instead of those -lets just say you have to step on it then shoot (making the stage illegal) and then make it a forbidden action to do it the other way. There were ways to fix it and 100% make it where they had to be activated first - EASILY but no the forbidden action method was used. WHEN IS THIS GOING TO BE REMOVED FROM THE RULE BOOK. "Forbidden action may ONLY be used to correct safety issues" is how the rule should be Edited October 1, 2012 by bsdubois00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Nik wrote: Yes. Have you ever run a major USPSA match? Designed and built and officiated a stage at one? Nik, you posed the same question to me a couple of weeks ago. The vast majority of USPSA'ers aren't ever going to RO/MD/RM a major match. So does that make their comments/opinions/criticism as a paying customer at some major match any less valid? Not necessarily -- but it certainly provides a baseline, or lack of one for the conversation. I've done both -- so I understand the challenges and rewards from both sides of the fence. If you've never done it, and don't understand the process, there might be a bit of magical thinking going on -- and that sentence could apply equally well to match designers who have never competed at a level 2 or 3 match, as it could to competitors who haven't ever worked one..... Much like a discussion of the rules is different, when chatting with someone who has been through an RO class (recently) versus someone who hasn't (ever or a very long time ago)..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 "Forbidden action may ONLY be used to correct safety issues" is how the rule should be Respectfully, no. That probably shouldn't be the only exception..... A match is underway -- someone finds a new way to shoot the stage. That's great, but every second shooter shoots an activator wire, requiring a five minute stop for Mr. Fix-it, as well as a reshoot. Sorry, probably need FA to deal with that expeditiously -- I won't like it, but I have half the competitors still to run through the stage, or to toss the stage, and have a hole..... I argued against inclusion of the rule when it was first proposed -- and still don't love the inclusion. But it's occasionally useful..... In that situation you described, FA wasn't the problem. The problem started with design/build/officiating.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 Question though Nik - wouldn't you agree that it is pretty black and white in the rule book that you CAN NOT at a L2 and higher dictate where and when a shooter shoots a target? This doesn't take putting on a match to understand - NOBODY who puts on a L2 and higher can LEGALLY tell a competitor how to shoot a stage. The rule book says that. Using Forbidden Action to force this vs a proper stage design is failing on your job as a RM/MD/RO. Competitors are held to VERY strict standards - Oops I accidentally loaded 11 rds in my mag in production - but I promise I didn't need that one - OPEN - there is no gray area - seems however that MD/RM/RO have much more gray area. I heard "Holster Up" this weekend - seriously - at a L2 match I was told to "HOLSTER UP" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 "Forbidden action may ONLY be used to correct safety issues" is how the rule should be Respectfully, no. That probably shouldn't be the only exception..... A match is underway -- someone finds a new way to shoot the stage. That's great, but every second shooter shoots an activator wire, requiring a five minute stop for Mr. Fix-it, as well as a reshoot. Sorry, probably need FA to deal with that expeditiously -- I won't like it, but I have half the competitors still to run through the stage, or to toss the stage, and have a hole..... I argued against inclusion of the rule when it was first proposed -- and still don't love the inclusion. But it's occasionally useful..... In that situation you described, FA wasn't the problem. The problem started with design/build/officiating.... Honestly - I would say shooting a wire is a SAFETY issue - wouldn't you? Running around a fault line or shooting a target prior to activation is NOT a safety issue unless the target being shot prior to activation would cause a round to leave a berm. OK State Sectional a few weeks ago - had this cool windmill target thing - My idea was to shoot it static from a low port - we talked to the RM and looked and looked and honestly it appeared if done so the round would leave the range. He called FA on ONLY the target that would leave the range - not the others. THIS was the PROPER use of the rule IMO (My Opinion is'nt worth a whole lot sometimes" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrawandDuck Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) Dude let it go.... Edited October 1, 2012 by DrawandDuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 People need to understand the meaning of "infer" and "imply." I am also of the opinion that reading-comprehension is not exactly a regarded skill in these corners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) So let me ask you this Randall. It's ok to do something not by the rules if everyone else is forced to do it? What if everyone decided to load 120 power factor? Is it ok to let it go since everyone did it? I looked a open,lim,prod an the top 30 on that stage 60% had mikes on that stage. Someone at your skill level it wasn't an issue for but for us that are not at that level yet should be allowed to shoot it as we want within the rules. ETA - 70.5% of the shooters who shot that stage HAD at least 1 penalty. Now - can you see how this makes a bigger difference for those in the middle of the pack vs those at your level that are able to make those shots and transitions without any issue? Edited October 1, 2012 by bsdubois00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrawandDuck Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) I understand what you are saying about the "rules".....with that foward mover I do not see much of a way to hide it......at least with the port you you can have your sight picture up and ready before you activate it and in my opinion a much easier array than if they used a door to activate it as you would go into it blind and have to re-grip and re-acquire your sight picture thus making it harder....I guess I don't take is as serious as some......you must have me confused with someone else as I shoot open which takes no talent as the gun does all the work...you just point it and pull the trigger. Didn't mean to bust your balls earlier but it is what it is and we can't change that....No Worries. PS....on this stage I had something that has never happened to me in my 6 years of shooting....2 primers not go bang on the same stage...only equipment issue of the match. Happened once on the poppers and the 2nd time when I went to engage the right mover...had to chase it down to the end to engage......but the clam, clam, forward mover was available if you went into the port prepared to engage the left clam first then the right clam then the forward mover. Edited October 1, 2012 by DrawandDuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Question though Nik - wouldn't you agree that it is pretty black and white in the rule book that you CAN NOT at a L2 and higher dictate where and when a shooter shoots a target? This doesn't take putting on a match to understand - NOBODY who puts on a L2 and higher can LEGALLY tell a competitor how to shoot a stage. The rule book says that. Using Forbidden Action to force this vs a proper stage design is failing on your job as a RM/MD/RO. Competitors are held to VERY strict standards - Oops I accidentally loaded 11 rds in my mag in production - but I promise I didn't need that one - OPEN - there is no gray area - seems however that MD/RM/RO have much more gray area. I heard "Holster Up" this weekend - seriously - at a L2 match I was told to "HOLSTER UP" 2.3.1.1.b would seem to clearly prohibit the use of a forbidden action in the manner in which you describe its use...... And sure, if I'm working as an RO/CRO/RM at a level 2 I may not be able to tell you how to shoot a stage, but I can certainly tell you how not to, under 2.3.1.1 in the interests of either safety or competitive equity.... I might do the first, I probably wouldn't do the second -- but then I like designing and shooting stages with options..... I don't want everyone doing the exact same thing unless it's a classifier or standards.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Honestly - I would say shooting a wire is a SAFETY issue - wouldn't you? How? Who's going to get hurt if that wire's 30 feet downrange? OK State Sectional a few weeks ago - had this cool windmill target thing - My idea was to shoot it static from a low port - we talked to the RM and looked and looked and honestly it appeared if done so the round would leave the range. He called FA on ONLY the target that would leave the range - not the others. THIS was the PROPER use of the rule IMO (My Opinion is'nt worth a whole lot sometimes" That sounds like an example of a good call..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 @Nik - If a shooter could hit a wire at 30 foot down range its almost worth letting him go for it (joking) I understand and maybe add that in there: Forbidden action may only be used for safety issues or to prevent range equipment abuse; forbidden action MAY NOT be used to force a shooter to shoot a way a stage was "intended" @Draw - not trying to cause anything - I admitted that the match was fun - I just want to see equality going forward - we have a set of rules for a reason - why do we not stick by them? I bet the door would have been interesting - also 1 of the DT's could have been a swinger - there were ways around it just saying the "easy" option was chosen. Also - I practice every opportunity I have - unfortunately I don't have access to a private range so I get only 2 or so training sessions in a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.Reid Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I'm not as up to date on the rule book as I should be and I'm also not a very good range lawyer. I thought the stage added alot of fun elements to this match. I enjoyed it. I also believe that the powers that be will really look at all that has been said and make the appropiate changes in the future. As for today we all shot the stage the same way, therefore in my mind it was a fair, equally administered, challenging stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 Oh I def agree - it was a fun / wild & crazy stage - I've never seen so much movement at 1 time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Oh I def agree - it was a fun / wild & crazy stage - I've never seen so much movement at 1 time And that's part of the problem right there. Sounds like they tried to put every prop in the barn on one stage. Made it too complex from an administrative point of view and tried to make it right by using the FA rule as a crutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Nik wrote: Not necessarily -- but it certainly provides a baseline, or lack of one for the conversation.... Define "baseline" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Been following this thread since its inception. Question is why is it such a big deal to require the activation of the target prior to engaging it? The shooter needed to activate the stomp plate to engage the other targets. The target in question is what activated the sideways mover. Were they set so quick that the movers literally completed their travel in a matter of seconds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 Yea they were that fast - want video? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) Deleted Edited October 1, 2012 by bsdubois00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Since people already knows what specific match everybody is talking about, does anybody recall how the Forbidden Action or forced to activate first was written in the WSB? Was it phrased as: "It is a Forbidden Action to engage T1 prior to activation."? Or was it phrased as "T1 must be engaged after activation." If the latter, then the WSB sounds illegal to me as it contravenes the freestyle provision of 1.1.5. If the former, then 2.3.1.1.a seems to have been invoked, although in my opinion, unfairly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 It wasn't written on the WSB it was written on the RO's talk script that targets must be activated prior to engaging and initialed by the RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 And that's part of the problem right there. Sounds like they tried to put every prop in the barn on one stage. Made it too complex from an administrative point of view and tried to make it right by using the FA rule as a crutch. Not in the least-- it was actually a really cool idea for an array. (One of several at this match, which we can't name.) Honestly, when I first saw it in the stage diagram, I thought the intention was to allow folks to shoot said mover while stationary, from notably further away and before activating the stomp box. OR skip it entirely, as it was a disappearing target. Offering options for freestyle, IOW. I'm guessing NROI felt the same way about it when they gave the nod-- and in reality, I think that's an even more genius design. Needless to say, I was surprised by the FA in light of that first interpretation (and after my initial walk through the day before I shot said array). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 It wasn't written on the WSB it was written on the RO's talk script that targets must be activated prior to engaging and initialed by the RM As noted by Troy on another thread, the talkie is the WSB. If it was written that way without even mention of the words "Forbidden Action", then the worst that could happen is that 10.2.2 procedurals may apply. No risk of zeroing the stage. I believe that the procedurals can be arb'ed after shooting the stage and the procedurals have been appealed to the RO, CRO, and RM because: 3.2.5 A written stage briefing must comply with the current USPSA rules. 2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to activation. 1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Since the WSB didn't comply with 2.1.8.5 and 1.1.5, the procedurals should not apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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