Can Pistol Practice Help Your Rifle Shooting?

[rhino]

I very rarely shoot my AR, but I've been shooting pistol quite a bit lately. While the improvements in my pistol skills are marginal, I noticed this weekend that my rifle shooting has improved noticeably.

I thought it was weird for a while, then I realized ... it's all about:

Sight alignment

Sight picture

trigger control

follow through

[Scooter]

Now the hard part is when you transition to shooting a shotgun especially at fast moving clay targets. All of a sudden you have to start focusing on the clay instead of the sights.

[sargenv]

I dunno, I shot a few rounds of skeet this week after not shooting moving shotgun targets and I managed a 24 and like a 22. The 24 I got as far as station 6 without a miss. But then I've always been a good wingshot. I've been shooting Shotguns since I was like 12 (37 now). Pistol and Rifle didn't start till I was already over 21.

Vince

[George]

Yes, there will always be some crossover whenever you work hard at something that has some similiarities, but IMHO, a lot of pistol shooting will help your pistol shooting much more than it will help your rifle, or shotgun shooting. Conversely, a lot of rifle shooting is going to be way better for your rifle technique that it is for anything else.

There is the point of coming at something fresh after not doing it for a little bit, after having done a whole lot of it. Maybe that is what you are getting a little bit of here. Back when I played in rockroll bands, it was well known that if you lay off for 3-4 days, maybe a week before gigs, or recording that your material is fresher in your eyes and you are very likely to perform it better. If you work a song too hard, you can work the life out of it if you are not careful. A great performance does involve “some” spontaneity

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Regards,

[rhino]

I think you're all right ...

My shotgun shooting has gotten uglier and uglier. When I first started 3-Gun years ago, I was really fast with the shotgun. Reloads were uncommon, so it was just a matter of who could blaze the fastest.

Something changed along the line, and now I just can't do it anymore. I did a lot better before I knew how to shoot at all. I just looked at the target and pressed the trigger when it looked and felt good. I think that I try to "aim" with sights now, and it's definitely not working for me.

I probably need to develop a weekly trap shooting habit. I've shot trap once formally, and shot informal aerial clay targets twice. I think the follow through aspects would help my shooting on the NRA AP moving target too.

But back to the rifle ... I can call my shots now. I am still not there with the pistol (but getting closer), but I pick up my rifle and now I know when I miss (or hit) and usually why. I had a bad miss on a steel target in the dark (night shoot!) in my class over the weekend and immediately I said, "Ouch! I didn't follow through." I was right.

My groups (when zeroing our rifles) were probably 1/3 the size they were last year.

Heck, if I spent a little more time with the ol' rifle, maybe I could do something serious! I do know that my best scores in 3-Gun lately have been with the rifle, as compared to the other shooters. I'm not sure if that means that my pistol and shotgun suck more than I thought, or what!

[EricW]

Rifle is rifle. Totally different muscle groups than pistol. Totally different shooting method. VASTLY increased susceptibility to your pulse.

Shooting pistol teaches you how to call your shots, but not a hell of a lot else about shooting a rifle.

[kimel]

I do think that pistol helps with trigger control. Since I shoot an rifle with an optic and limited pistol I don't think anything else applies.

I did the Matt Burkett "timing drill" with the rifle one day though. THAT was enlightening. I was using an IPSC target at 20 yards and had the scope dialed down to 1.5x (lowest it would go).

Then did some cadence drills (again, ala Matt) with the rifle. Again it was enlightening.

I need to do similar things with shotgun and slugs. Oh my aching shoulder....

[rhino]

Given that trigger control and follow through are pretty much the biggest demons most shooters face ... it sounds like there is some benefit to share between the two.

[ERIC]

I think it helps. I don't shoot rifle or shotgun too much but I shoot a lot of pistol matches. When I shoot at the local rifle/shotgun matches, I usually do as well as my friends that mainly shoot rifles and shotguns.

Maybe shooting a lot of pistol matches just helps me get into the right frame of mind and let's me practice movement or maybe my friends are just no good.

[TonyH]

Rhino

Sounds like you were listening & paying attention, the day we were out. Now you are using what you learned.

Ericw

I have to disagree with you on your thoughts that pistol & rifle are different. Trigger control, sight alignment, & follow through will always apply in what ever weapon you will shoot. You should always be able to call your shots, no matter what.

[rhino]

Sounds like you were listening & paying attention, the day we were out. Now you are using what you learned.

I'm trying to not let you down! You were kind enough to try to help me, so the least I can do is pay attention and do my best to put it into action! Thanks again!

BTW ... I won Tactical Division in our tiny 3-Gun match on Sunday using my mad, crazy rifle skills. I shoot it like a big pistol I can hold against my shoulder and everything seems to work out okay.

[EricW]

Ericw

I have to disagree with you on your thoughts that pistol & rifle are different. Trigger control, sight alignment, & follow through will always apply in what ever weapon you will shoot. You should always be able to call your shots, no matter what.

You are correct. I am wrong. In fact, words cannot describe the depth of my incorrectitude on this matter.

I have changed my tune. I now highly encourage everyone to leave the rifle in the safe and shoot their pistol so that it will improve their rifle shooting. If you should be so foolish to actually bring your rifle to the range, I recommend shooting one's rifle off the bench and ONLY off the bench. NEVER, EVER, PICK UP YOUR RIFLE! Leave the rifle safely and snugly on those high-zoot sandbags. The only thing that matters in rifle shooting is constant evaluation of its mechanical accuracy. With the advent of the bipod and the rangefinding scope, no further knowledge is necessary.

Remember, never shoot more than one round every five minutes so you won't lose your cold-barrel zero.

I also encourage the use of Winchester 55 grain FMJ's with Federal brass and keeping one's barrel nut finger tight.

[rhino]

I didn't see anyone advocating pistol shooting in lieu of rifle practice to improve rifle shooting, but just that their is significant similarity in the basics that the practice for one will benefit the skills of the other.

[BigDave]

EricW - your retort suprises me.

What my esteemed colleges Rhino and TonyH are submitting is that fundamentals are just that. Fundamental trigger control is the same no matter the untencil.

[rhino]

Dude, what's the deal? Are you purposely ignoring the real point here, or are you trying to be funny, or what?

Help me to understand your reaction.

[Loves2Shoot]

I think it depends on what type of rifle shooting you are talking about. Calling a shot is calling a shot, so it is better than not shooting anything so it will increase your base skills. But the improvement will be minimal. I would agree with Eric in that to shoot a rifle better you need to do the things you do with your pistol, dryfire, live fire, visualization and add breathing for those longer shots, but you need to use your rifle to do it.

[EricW]

Help me to understand your reaction.

I'm trying to push you. And I am totally unrepentant about it.

I suck big wind at shooting a rifle. But, spending a lot of time behind my rifle over the past couple months has revealed one truth: shooting a rifle is very different than shooting a pistol.

Positions:

You basically have one position to shoot your pistol from: your freestyle platform. For the rifle, there's four basic positons. All are unique. Then there's the awkward positions that you're always forced to shoot from. Nothing that you did with the pistol helps you do any of this.

Trigger Control:

I have never had to worry about shooting between heartbeats with my pistol. Ever. Not so wth the rifle. My pulse, even at rest, moves the entire damned gun.

Strength and Stability:

My pistol is rock solid on target out to 100 yards. My rifle is a bobbing and weaving disaster. There is NOTHING about pistol shooting that has prepared me physically to stably support my rifle. How that happens without actually holding a rifle mystifies me.

Windage and Elevation:

When's the last time you used windage to complete a course of fire with your pistol? Short answer: Never. And unless you were shooting well beyond 50 yards, you've never legitimately had to compensate for bullet drop or grade changes.

The Point:

I watched several people come to a three gun match where their only practice with their rifles took place two days prior to the match. All were worthy pistol shooters. They had fancy guns. The had a perfect zero. Their ammo was sufficient to the task. AND EVERY DAMNED ONE OF THEM TUBED THE MATCH. Their rifle shooting was a disaster.

Everybody thinks rifle shooting is so much easier than pistol - therefore practice is unnecessary.

Keep thinking that way and I will own you.

[BigDave]

Eric,

I don't believe the intent of this thread or the subsequent comments made by Rhino or Tony were to suggesst, even remotely, that becoming proficient with one thing will make one profecient in all things. Rather, the point (as I've already stated) is that basic fundamentals carry over to all things.

Think about this: would you even worry about shooting between heartbeats if your trigger control was garbage? Would even realize that you need to worry about such things?

To say pistol and rifle shooting are absolutely interdependent is, as you've stated, fallacy. However, to say they are mutually exclusive, that basic fundamentals learned in one wouldn't carry over on at least some level, is also incorrect.

Ummm...one more thing...don't even get started on the windage thing and pistols. Espeically when speaking to folks who shoot Action Pistol. Think about the Mover and mover mounts.

I say get the rifle back out and keep pulling the trigger.

[kurtm]

I tend to agree more with EricW. Unless one is grounded firmly in rifle shooting doctrin,shooting a pistol won't help much. I remember when Taran first ventured into 3-gun. He was hell on wheels with the pistol, and yet was fairly easy to beat, due to the rifle and shotgun shooting (not so now!!) At the time he was a grand master pistol guy, but untill he spent time getting grounded in rifle and shotgun fundamentals, his more than great pistol skill didn't transfer to much.

I find that shooting rifle and shotgun are far different than shooting a pistol. The focus is entirly different for sight /scope/bead. dragging a finger on the stock will spell disaster, not so with the pistol. Cheek weld and natural point of aim are way different for rifle and shotgun and non existent for pistol. I find the trigger controll to be quite different also. A quick press that delivers two quick pistol shots would spell disaster on a rifle aimed for a far shot, and would deliver a hit/miss with the shotgun. Calling the shot on a 5" sight radius at 10yds, isn't nearly the same as calling the shot on a 26" sight radius at 250yds. If the skills mutually supported to any large degree, ALL great pistol shooters would be GREAT rifle shots, but this simply isn't the case. I've known great rifle shooters who couldn't use a pistol very well and I've known great pistol shooters that can't utilise a rifle very well, and untill you practice with BOTH I feel that they are somewhat exclusive of each other. KURTM

[George]

Howdy,

I will pop in again and say I still agree with Kurt & Eric, all things being equal, some things are different.

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Regards,

[rhino]

I find that shooting rifle and shotgun are far different than shooting a pistol. The focus is entirly different for sight /scope/bead. dragging a finger on the stock will spell disaster, not so with the pistol. Cheek weld and natural point of aim are way different for rifle and shotgun and non existent for pistol.

Okay, well you're comparing even bigger apples and oranges now. First of all, no one was talking about shotguns... the fundamentals are different.

Second, you're talking about the difference between shooting iron sights and scopes more than the difference between rifle and pistol. While Tactical Division is all the rage now, some people do have a scope/dot on both or use irons on both. If you change the sighting system substantially, you altering the sight picture and sight alignment.

I find the trigger controll to be quite different also. A quick press that delivers two quick pistol shots would spell disaster on a rifle aimed for a far shot, and would deliver a hit/miss with the shotgun.

Now you're comparing hoser shots with the pistol and long shots with the rifle. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to compare a 50 yard pistol shot with long range rifle shots instead of a 5 yard pistol shot and a 250 yard rifle shot?

Trigger control is trigger control ... one may have a better trigger than the other, but for any given trigger, you have to press it backward without disturbing your sight picture too much for a given required accuracy.

Calling the shot on a 5" sight radius at 10yds, isn't nearly the same as calling the shot on a 26" sight radius at 250yds. If the skills mutually supported to any large degree, ALL great pistol shooters would be GREAT rifle shots, but this simply isn't the case.

Again, you're comparing a very easy pistol shot to a more demanding rifle shot. You might as well compare a 10 yard rifle shot to the 250 yard rifle shot. They do not require the same attention to sight picture or trigger control (you need to see what you need to see, right?). And a 10 yard rifle shot has holdover issues, where a 250 yard shot should be right one the money with 250-50 yard zeroes.

THE TOPIC ISN'T ABOUT REPLACING RIFLE PRACTICE WITH PISTOL PRACTICE. It's about noting that practicing with one can help with the other, not that it will make anyone "great" if they never touch a rifle.

[rhino]

I suck big wind at shooting a rifle.  But, spending a lot of time behind my rifle over the past couple months has revealed one truth:  shooting a rifle is very different than shooting a pistol. 

No one said they weren't different. Some of us just maintain there are some common elements, i.e. the fundamentals of marksmanship.

Positions:

You basically have one position to shoot your pistol from: your freestyle platform.  For the rifle, there's four basic positons.  All are unique.  Then there's the awkward positions that you're always forced to shoot from.  Nothing that you did with the pistol helps you do any of this. 

You never shoot pistol from prone or kneeling or squatting? I agree there is a difference, but regardless of the position, you still have to see what you need to see and work the trigger and follow through adequately to get the hits.

Trigger Control:

I have never had to worry about shooting between heartbeats with my pistol.  Ever.  Not so wth the rifle.  My pulse, even at rest, moves the entire damned gun. 

What distances are you shooting pistol vs. rifle? Agreed that you may feel more on the rifle since it's blocked against your body, but waiting for wobble and pulse are sight picture issues ... and WHEN you press the trigger, not how you press the trigger.

Strength and Stability:

My pistol is rock solid on target out to 100 yards.  My rifle is a bobbing and weaving disaster.  There is NOTHING about pistol shooting that has prepared me physically to stably support my rifle.  How that happens without actually holding a rifle mystifies me.

I can't address this, because I find the opposite to be true. I very rarely shoot pistol at 100 yards, but my biggest problem at 75-100 is that my front sight obscures the target and my crappy trigger control and lack of follow through exacerbate any small problems with sight picture.

I'm a lot more stable with rifle ... unless I'm using a telescopic sight and the magnification is vexing you. But then the sighting system is changing things on a fundamental level. I feel a lot more stable when I use irons, a dot, or keep the magnification low. When I use the Leupold on 4X, I have the same bobbing and weaving problem because of the magnification. Guess what ... if I had a four power scope on my pistol, I'll bet I'd have the same problem. Maybe not, but I'd bet on it.

Windage and Elevation:

When's the last time you used windage to complete a course of fire with your pistol?  Short answer:  Never.  And unless you were shooting well beyond 50 yards, you've never legitimately had to compensate for bullet drop or grade changes. 

With my .45, I definitely have to account for bullet drop on the 50 yard portion of the Practical Even in NRA Action Pistol.

Windage? You're right, that's typically not a problem when shooting a pistol, but it's also not a problem with rifle when shooting at the same short distances. Again, no one said that shooting pistol was a replacement for rifle, just that practicing with the pistol can HELP improve rifle shooting.

The Point:

I watched several people come to a three gun match where their only practice with their rifles took place two days prior to the match.  All were worthy pistol shooters.  They had fancy guns.  The had a perfect zero.  Their ammo was sufficient to the task.  AND EVERY DAMNED ONE OF THEM TUBED THE MATCH.  Their rifle shooting was a disaster.

I have no way of addressing this.

Everybody thinks rifle shooting is so much easier than pistol - therefore practice is unnecessary.

Keep thinking that way and I will own you.

Who in this topic stated or implied that rifle shooting was easier than anything? Who stated or implied that practice wasn't necessary?

You're deliberately "missing" the specific point I was trying to make when I started this topic. I still don't understand why, but it's obvious.

Allow me to restate by way of example:

I don't have the opportunity to practice with my rifle as much as I do with pistol. Lately I've been practicing a lot (for me) with pistol. I also recently participated in another rifle class without having shot rifle much lately. My accuracy, speed, and ability to shoot on the move are all better, even though I have not spent the time with the rifle. The only possible conclusion is that I got some benefit from the pistol practice in areas where I need improvement that cross over to the rifle.

I've also shot in several three gun matches recently where I did much better with rifle than I did with pistol. I won Tactical Divison last Sunday because of my rifle scores. I got second place in the match overall on a rifle stage in a much bigger match a few weeks ago. That is unusual for me, but the difference is that I am better at trigger control, sight picture, and follow through.

I'm not saying I don't need to practice with my rifle. In fact, I intend to practice quite a bit more with it over the next few months because I've been doing well and I want to capitalize on the momentum. There is no doubt, however, that at least some of my improvement arose through practicing the fundamentals of marksmanship with my pistol.

[George]

Geez Rhino, relax, no one is saying that there is “no” effect. In fact, it’s not very hard to see that all shooting practice is good in some manner and to some degree and that some fundamentals do indeed transfer. The key here is the word “some”. And also the degree of effectiveness at which one application improves the other application.

In other words, rifle practice is always “more“ effective at developing rifle skills than pistol practice is PERIOD Yes, there is some good effect given by all types of practice, but the actual instrument works “better“ than a different one every time. Note the difference between “works better“, and “doesn’t work at all“.

Musical analogy: It’s also a lot like a guitarist who also learns to play piano, it certainly helps his theory, rhythm and counterpoint, but it does very little for his guitar fingering technique.

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Regards,

Edited August 26, 2004 by George

[Loves2Shoot]

Rhino,

Running everyday and a good diet will help your shooting, but it doesn't increase your skill level. Does that make sense?

[kurtm]

WOW, I was talking about iron to iron. The 26" sight radius was the hint. I usually shoot iron on both unless someone pays for me to shoot a scope on the old black carbine, but the pistol is always iron. OK maybe the 10 yard to 250 yard compairison was a bit off, but how do we usually use the respective firearm? Hosing from 10 in seems to be the norm these days for pistol at least at the National 3-gun and local matches I've been to, and rifle seems to be picking up for farther away. YES there are close hoser rifle stages, but by far more mid to far range.

to take your analogy just a bit farther... the fundamentals of pressing strings in the right order is the same for guitar and violin, but being good with one isn't the same as playing the other. They are both stringed instruments, but very different. YES trigger press should be the same, no matter what...but it isn't, YES follow through should be the same....but it isn't. A good example of this is follow through. with a pistol you watch the gun move and the sight return to target, with a rifle you are moving WITH the sights, recoil what little there may be moves the whole body not just the arms and hands Fender and Stratovarious, the same but different.

You say YES...I say NO...you say Tomahto, I say Tomayto, let's call the whole thing off. KURTM