Decocking Production guns

[Sarge]

I am a little confused by the wording of the rules regarding decockers in Production division. And this ruling does not really help matters nor was anything changed in the rulebook after the ruling was made:

RULES:

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked.

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down,

or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety

engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

APPENDIX D4 — Production Division (Contd.)

Special conditions:

— Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal.

NROI Rulings

Title:Decockers at half cockCreated:3/06/08Updated:7/31/08Effective:8/07/08Rule number:Appx D4 SpecApplies to:PistolRuling authority:John AmidonStatus:ReleasedQuestionDoes the CZ decocker or others similar, lower the hammer sufficiently to comply with Production division, and if not, how would they comply with the wording in 10.5.9 without being DQ'd?RulingManufacturers have installed decockers to take the hammer safely to a position that is deemed safe, therefore; the term fully decocked is the position that the hammer rest at once the decocker has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed.

By definition isn't half cocked not fully decocked? And isn't half cocked not "fully down"?

I corrected a shooter last night on this when I noticed his gun was half cocked after he used the decocking lever. Of course he said everybody else had been telling him it was fine to use the decock lever.

[sperman]

It sounds to me like you're the one that needs to be corrected.

DNROI says that if the gun comes with a decocker, use it, and you have met the ready condition for produciton. What part of the ruling you quoted is hard to understand?

[motosapiens]

By definition isn't half cocked not fully decocked? And isn't half cocked not "fully down"?

not the same, but they are similar, so I understand your confusion despite the VERY clear guidance you cited.

fully decocked on a decocker-equipped gun means 'where the decocker puts the hammer'.

fully decocked on a non-decocker-equipped gun means 'hammer manually lowered all the way down'.

one of those *might* be the same place as what is sometimes called 'half-cocked', but that is immaterial.

I corrected a shooter last night on this when I noticed his gun was half cocked after he used the decocking lever

Unfortunately, what you told him was incorrect. Hopefully you'll see him again and can rectify the situation.

[steel1212]

Ok so if this is true then I need to get a decocker CZ! I only have half the trigger pull that way on the start as it starts on the half cock notch. This is complete BS. Remove the decock anything on exposed hammered guns and simply say hammer fully down.

[motosapiens]

Ok so if this is true then I need to get a decocker CZ! I only have half the trigger pull that way on the start as it starts on the half cock notch. This is complete BS. Remove the decock anything on exposed hammered guns and simply say hammer fully down.

if you think it would be significant advantage, then you should get a decocker cz.

I have one of each. I don't think it's a significant advantage. It also prevents me from starting cocked and locked if I want to shoot limited, or esp, or steel challenge, or whatever.

The fact that decocker cz's aren't dominating uspsa competition indicates to me that it's not worth worrying about.

[steel1212]

Ok so if this is true then I need to get a decocker CZ! I only have half the trigger pull that way on the start as it starts on the half cock notch. This is complete BS. Remove the decock anything on exposed hammered guns and simply say hammer fully down.

if you think it would be significant advantage, then you should get a decocker cz.

I have one of each. I don't think it's a significant advantage. It also prevents me from starting cocked and locked if I want to shoot limited, or esp, or steel challenge, or whatever.

The fact that decocker cz's aren't dominating uspsa competition indicates to me that it's not worth worrying about.

I do have decocker CZs along with my Shadows. I'm not needing to start cocked and locked in production where the decocker would need to be used. CZs weren't dominating production a few years ago also until recently....

[motosapiens]

I do have decocker CZs along with my Shadows. I'm not needing to start cocked and locked in production where the decocker would need to be used. CZs weren't dominating production a few years ago also until recently....

The ones that are most common (by far) seem to be the non-decocker models, don't you think? Maybe it's just around here and what I read on the internet. I'm not seeing a big demand for a decocker-equipped shadow, but my wife has accused me of ignoring things i'm not interested in.

[steel1212]

1347401489[/url]' post='1777568']

1347400973[/url]' post='1777560']

I do have decocker CZs along with my Shadows. I'm not needing to start cocked and locked in production where the decocker would need to be used. CZs weren't dominating production a few years ago also until recently....

The ones that are most common (by far) seem to be the non-decocker models, don't you think? Maybe it's just around here and what I read on the internet. I'm not seeing a big demand for a decocker-equipped shadow, but my wife has accused me of ignoring things i'm not interested in.

I'm not questioning what is being used I'm questioning the fairness of the rule. If CZ came out with a decocker equipped shadow that had the same awesome trigger feel what do you think would happen. The decocker on a CZ gives you half the trigger pull on the first shot compared to non decocker equipped guns. To me it doesn't matter that decocker guns aren't used that much it matters more to me that the loop hole is there to exploit if the manufacture wanted to.

[Skydiver]

What about the Daewoo DP51 which is on the production list? http://world.guns.ru...oo-dp-51-e.html

You can have the mainspring cocked and the hammer fully down.

I'm looking for the other thread, but basically the conclusion on that thread was that the shooter pushing the hammer forward does not count as a decocking mechanism.

Edit after: Here's the DP51 thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=140328

Edited September 11, 2012 by Skydiver

[Sarge]

It sounds to me like you're the one that needs to be corrected. I don't have a problem with that. I intend to get ahold of the guy. BUT that does not mean I agree with it OR feel that it is all that clear.

DNROI says that if the gun comes with a decocker, use it, and you have met the ready condition for produciton. What part of the ruling you quoted is hard to understand? What I don't understand is why NROI allows a decocker to go to half cocked when the rule states the hammer should be fully forward.

[MGMorden]

What I don't understand is why NROI allows a decocker to go to half cocked when the rule states the hammer should be fully forward.

The clarification under the Production division however states that the gun must start "fully decocked". NROI is the final authority on rules interpretations, and they have stated that activating the decocker on a gun equipped with one counts as being "fully decocked".

Realistically, this serves a good safety purpose. IMHO, manually thumbing down the hammer is something that should be done as a last resort at a match. I've done it a ton of times on guns myself and never had an accident, but I know full well that one slip and its an AD. Encouraging the use of a decocker when its present just makes sense from a safety standpoint. Given how many production striker-fired guns are running ultra-light triggers, I don't personally see a half-cocked first shot to be making that much difference anyways.

[steel1212]

1347420645[/url]' post='1777806']

I don't personally see a half-cocked first shot to be making that much difference anyways.

In the big picture it doesn't.

With that said is any exposed hammer gun with out a decocker unsafe? What happens if you decocker notch gets rounded when you hit the lever? With a exposed hammer gun I control the hammer through the entire motion.

[Nik Habicht]

Ok so if this is true then I need to get a decocker CZ! I only have half the trigger pull that way on the start as it starts on the half cock notch. This is complete BS. Remove the decock anything on exposed hammered guns and simply say hammer fully down.

Sure -- because we know better than the gun designers, right?

A Brand X gun with a decocking lever is not the same thing as a Brand X gun without a decocking lever. This rule hasn't changed in years -- probably a decade or so. For as long as I can remember the rule has been if it has a decocker, use it. If not, then manually lower the hammer all the way.

[Nik Habicht]

1347420645[/url]' post='1777806']

I don't personally see a half-cocked first shot to be making that much difference anyways.

In the big picture it doesn't.

With that said is any exposed hammer gun with out a decocker unsafe? What happens if you decocker notch gets rounded when you hit the lever? With a exposed hammer gun I control the hammer through the entire motion.

Probably not a problem on Smith & Wesson 5900 series, as the decocking lever also shields the firing pin from hammer impact.....

When considering rules changes such as these, please consider the impact not only on what you shoot, but on all other guns that fall into the category and are legal for the sport....

[steel1212]

1347425438[/url]' post='1777839']

1347400608[/url]' post='1777555']

Ok so if this is true then I need to get a decocker CZ! I only have half the trigger pull that way on the start as it starts on the half cock notch. This is complete BS. Remove the decock anything on exposed hammered guns and simply say hammer fully down.

Sure -- because we know better than the gun designers, right?

A Brand X gun with a decocking lever is not the same thing as a Brand X gun without a decocking lever. This rule hasn't changed in years -- probably a decade or so. For as long as I can remember the rule has been if it has a decocker, use it. If not, then manually lower the hammer all the way.

Actually "we" are the reason for the MP pro, xdm 5.25, CZ shadow and the like so in some cases we do know better.

As far as brands are conserved all them have hammers that can go fully down right by pulling the trigger?

[steel1212]

1347425614[/url]' post='1777842']

1347421059[/url]' post='1777810']

1347420645[/url]' post='1777806']

I don't personally see a half-cocked first shot to be making that much difference anyways.

In the big picture it doesn't.

With that said is any exposed hammer gun with out a decocker unsafe? What happens if you decocker notch gets rounded when you hit the lever? With a exposed hammer gun I control the hammer through the entire motion.

Probably not a problem on Smith & Wesson 5900 series, as the decocking lever also shields the firing pin from hammer impact.....

When considering rules changes such as these, please consider the impact not only on what you shoot, but on all other guns that fall into the category and are legal for the sport....

So the 5900 does have a safer way of decocking. If I think about it so does the beretta line but remember we have to think of all guns and not all guns have something else to stop the hammer other than a extra notch.

Speaking of all guns getting impacted, currently we are talking about a very select few of people that shoot decocker guns as mentioned earlier. This thread was created by some confusion of the rule itself. If you simply had hammer fully down it would simplify things and still would only affect a select few that aren't doing it already.

[racerba]

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked.

See highlighted word...

NROI Rulings

Title:Decockers at half cockCreated:3/06/08Updated:7/31/08Effective:8/07/08Rule number:Appx D4 SpecApplies to:PistolRuling authority:John AmidonStatus:ReleasedQuestionDoes the CZ decocker or others similar, lower the hammer sufficiently to comply with Production division, and if not, how would they comply with the wording in 10.5.9 without being DQ'd?RulingManufacturers have installed decockers to take the hammer safely to a position that is deemed safe, therefore; the term fully decocked is the position that the hammer rest at once the decocker has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed.

Highlighted sentense described what fully decocked means in terms of the decocker.

By definition isn't half cocked not fully decocked? And isn't half cocked not "fully down"?

Taken literally for the definition of the word(s) - yes. According to rules that we play by - no. according to the rules, using the decocking lever makes the hammer position "fully decocked" not necessarily "fully down".

...I'm questioning the fairness of the rule.

The rule is fair. It allows the competitor to choose what type of gun to use. If you feel that it is an unfair advantage, you have other guns to choose from, including ones with a decocking lever.

Edited September 12, 2012 by racerba

[steel1212]

The rule is fair. It allows the competitor to choose what type of gun to use. If you feel that it is an unfair advantage, you have other guns to choose from, including ones with a decocking lever.

Its like having a limited gun with out a thumb safety but having a working grip safety....it still is safe but easier for some to shoot. If you think its fair, thats your right to do so, doesn't make it so or that I have to agree with you or that you have to agree with me either for that matter.

If the rule stated hammers fully down on all production guns it wouldn't exclude any gun that way either. The rule stated that way would also be less confusing to newer ROs. It would also make the trigger pull the same for all guns as well. I just showed a co-worker my PCR at hammer fully down and half cock and he said it was a huge difference.

[sperman]

Slight thread drift.

I had a shooter at GA State this weekend that wanted to start the stage with his H&K cocked and locked. I doubled checked to make sure he was shooting production and he confirmed he was. This was about his 5th stage of the match, so I assume he started C&L on the other 4 (and may have done the same on the stages after mine.)

[steel1212]

Slight thread drift.

I had a shooter at GA State this weekend that wanted to start the stage with his H&K cocked and locked. I doubled checked to make sure he was shooting production and he confirmed he was. This was about his 5th stage of the match, so I assume he started C&L on the other 4 (and may have done the same on the stages after mine.)

That is a whole other ball of wax there. I'm assuming he made ready cocked and locked? If so you could have asked if he did that on the other stages. If the answer was yes welcome him to open and when the RM arrives have him ask the other ROs why they allowed it?

[McAllyn]

Slight thread drift.

I had a shooter at GA State this weekend that wanted to start the stage with his H&K cocked and locked. I doubled checked to make sure he was shooting production and he confirmed he was. This was about his 5th stage of the match, so I assume he started C&L on the other 4 (and may have done the same on the stages after mine.)

Pretty sure that was a "Gaming the RO" move. I know a couple Shadow shooters who wouldn't mind running SAO in Production.

Mac

[steel1212]

Slight thread drift.

I had a shooter at GA State this weekend that wanted to start the stage with his H&K cocked and locked. I doubled checked to make sure he was shooting production and he confirmed he was. This was about his 5th stage of the match, so I assume he started C&L on the other 4 (and may have done the same on the stages after mine.)

Pretty sure that was a "Gaming the RO" move. I know a couple Shadow shooters who wouldn't mind running SAO in Production.

Mac

Its funny I had that option shooting 3 gun at Rock Castle PROAM and was so used to shooting double action with my shadow and I just did that lol.

[motosapiens]

I'm not questioning what is being used I'm questioning the fairness of the rule. If CZ came out with a decocker equipped shadow that had the same awesome trigger feel what do you think would happen. The decocker on a CZ gives you half the trigger pull on the first shot compared to non decocker equipped guns. To me it doesn't matter that decocker guns aren't used that much it matters more to me that the loop hole is there to exploit if the manufacture wanted to.

Well, it's not really 'half'. Someone else on this site measured the trigger pull and came up with 6-ish pounds fully down and 5-ish pounds at the decocked position.

And people are free to buy a decocker gun and have the custom shop (or anyone else) give it the same awesome trigger as the shadow.

Shooting my two guns back to back, I just don't see the advantage as being enough to worry about. I especially don't see it worth it changing the rules to force people to manually decock that may not be comfortable doing so.

this whole discussion is tempest in a teapot imho. When angus and the rest of the cz team start shooting a decocker models at nationals, let me know and I may care about it.

Honestly, it's a heckuva lot more advantage to be able to shoot what are really single-action guns (safetyless striker-fired guns like glock and m&p) in production. Lets complain about that now.

[justaute]

Not surprised. I have no problem with "gamers" -- cheaters need to be flogged and banned.

Pretty sure that was a "Gaming the RO" move. I know a couple Shadow shooters who wouldn't mind running SAO in Production.

Mac

[steel1212]

I'm not questioning what is being used I'm questioning the fairness of the rule. If CZ came out with a decocker equipped shadow that had the same awesome trigger feel what do you think would happen. The decocker on a CZ gives you half the trigger pull on the first shot compared to non decocker equipped guns. To me it doesn't matter that decocker guns aren't used that much it matters more to me that the loop hole is there to exploit if the manufacture wanted to.

Well, it's not really 'half'. Someone else on this site measured the trigger pull and came up with 6-ish pounds fully down and 5-ish pounds at the decocked position.

And people are free to buy a decocker gun and have the custom shop (or anyone else) give it the same awesome trigger as the shadow.

Shooting my two guns back to back, I just don't see the advantage as being enough to worry about. I especially don't see it worth it changing the rules to force people to manually decock that may not be comfortable doing so.

this whole discussion is tempest in a teapot imho. When angus and the rest of the cz team start shooting a decocker models at nationals, let me know and I may care about it.

Honestly, it's a heckuva lot more advantage to be able to shoot what are really single-action guns (safetyless striker-fired guns like glock and m&p) in production. Lets complain about that now.

I was talking about the hammer travel and the fact that your just pulling against return spring not HS, not the pull, used the wrong wording sorry about that. Ok so then explain to me why I can't start my shadow at half cock then, eliminate the part about the rules saying I can't. What is the difference?

As far as the glocks and MPs if people want to shoot inferior guns thats their choice

Edited September 12, 2012 by steel1212