ktm300 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Over the last couple of months I have worked a couple of LII matches. One thing that sticks out to me is the reluctance of the RO's to DQ somone for a clear rules violation that should result in a DQ. They go up and warn the guy afterwards which often produces an argument from the shooter. I have seen several times where later in the day that same shooter does something else that gets a DQ call from another RO. In my opinion you need to call what you are 100% sure of 100% of the time. Am I being too much of a hard a$$? I can see some slack for brand new shooters at a small L1 match. What would you do in this case: A shooter after make ready goes to put up their gun after loading it, they have it on safe, finger off the trigger, and the move their support hand over to hold their holster and sweap their hand while holstering their gun. You are standing in the correct position and are 100% sure they swept their hand. Clearly it is a violation of 10.5.5 but would you call it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 10.5.5.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 10.5.5.1 What is your point, are you saying it's not a DQ because of 10.5.5.1? 10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 10.5.5.1 Does not apply in this example. Matt's example is a clear case of 10.5.5 and should be called a DQ in every instance, including Level 1. This is no different than sweeping your hand when opening a port, or opening a door, or on an unloaded start where the gun and magazines are on a table, and you set your gun down, then place a magazine in a strategic spot, in front of the muzzle. You have swept yourself in all of these examples, and should be DQ'd. FWIW, my routine at Make Ready and ULSC/ICHDH is to put my support hand on my chest when holstering so there is no chance I sweep my hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Regarding 10.5.5.1 if you take it to the extreme, yes, you should DQ the shooter becuase the arm/hand he just swept isn't considered "lower extremities". This could be argued any which way. Me personally, I'd tell the shooter he needs to watch what he's doing when holstering. If he gives me an attitude, I'll DQ him. If he's gracious enough to take my comment, I'll let him continue. Flame suit on..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I can see some slack for brand new shooters at a small L1 match. So... the rulebook is up for just a smidge of interpretation....? Evidently - Everyone - even yourself - has a line they consider a "do not cross". Is it absolutely Black and White or 256 shades of grey? I will issue the DQ.... If I feel they need it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 This cannot be argued anyway, any which way or any other way. IF the shooter passes the muzzle of his gun across his hand while holstering, he has earned a DQ. Last I checked, the human hand is NOT a part of your lower extremities. If his hand is a part of or in some manner growing out of his leg, then I suppose he gets a pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 We should be having fun and being safe at all matches. There is absolutely no need to compromise one for the other and it should not happen. If a DQ is earned give it. If it is not earned then it should not happen. The DQ should be given due to violation of the rules not because of attitude. A shooters feelings on the matter are irrelevent to the call. It either happened or it did not happen. If the RO knows it happened then a DQ should result. No slack on safety ever. Not for anyone regardless of experience or classification or anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Regarding 10.5.5.1 if you take it to the extreme, yes, you should DQ the shooter becuase the arm/hand he just swept isn't considered "lower extremities". This could be argued any which way. Flame suit on..... No flame, just the intent of that rule is because a lot of us sweep our lower leg etc while we holster. Your hand is a long way from being part of your lower extremities as it is part of the upper extremities. I can't see any argument on that at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Regarding 10.5.5.1 if you take it to the extreme, yes, you should DQ the shooter becuase the arm/hand he just swept isn't considered "lower extremities". This could be argued any which way. Me personally, I'd tell the shooter he needs to watch what he's doing when holstering. If he gives me an attitude, I'll DQ him. If he's gracious enough to take my comment, I'll let him continue. Flame suit on..... I understand your feeling on this, but it's really not within your prerogative to make your own personal judgment calls based on the shooter's "attitude" toward you. If you saw the shooter sweep himself, and you're 100% certain of the call, you owe it to all the rest of us to make sure the appropriate sanction is levied.....and in this instance, the sanction happens to be a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Over the last couple of months I have worked a couple of LII matches. One thing that sticks out to me is the reluctance of the RO's to DQ somone for a clear rules violation that should result in a DQ. They go up and warn the guy afterwards which often produces an argument from the shooter. I have seen several times where later in the day that same shooter does something else that gets a DQ call from another RO. In my opinion you need to call what you are 100% sure of 100% of the time. Am I being too much of a hard a$$? I can see some slack for brand new shooters at a small L1 match. What would you do in this case: A shooter after make ready goes to put up their gun after loading it, they have it on safe, finger off the trigger, and the move their support hand over to hold their holster and sweap their hand while holstering their gun. You are standing in the correct position and are 100% sure they swept their hand. Clearly it is a violation of 10.5.5 but would you call it? Not only DQ him, but right then and there.... NOT only has this happened to me, it was one of my good friends, he was in his first year, had just ridden 14 hours in the car for the match, spent money on hotel, the match fee, and it was his last stage of the match. It was an indoor low light stage and was trying to keep his eyes closed to keep his dark vision. Not the best approach to make ready, but he hunted for his holster with his hand and before I could stop him he swept over his hand and into the holster. I hate calling DQs. Everytime I do it... it sucks. But I do it, no matter if it's a friend, a newbie, or a world champion GM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 In all instances if I know the shooter has broken a rule any rule,I make the call, whatever that may be DQ, procedural whatever. If I am not sure but strongly suspect they have broken a rule, especially safety rule's, I try to talk to the shooter after the stage has been scored to let them know what I thought may have occurred or came close to occurring, so they can take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Wow...never thought something like this would be a discussion. The hand was swept with a loaded gun, someone out there really thinks there is grey here? Much less based on the shooters attitude? Saw a man in another sport put a 45lc through his left hand, in n.y. long ago. Was not pretty. If you think there is grey here, please never r.o. me......I'd rather have the d.q. I earned thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Wow...never thought something like this would be a discussion. Kind of why I posted it. I see people not calling stuff all the time. I kind of wonder who they are helping? It's not the shooter as at some point they are going to run into an RO that calls what they see instead of what they feel like calling. That will probably be at their first major match. Or worse yet they are going to hurt somebody. My guess is the RO that doesn't make the call doesn't want to feel bad about giving a DQ. It sucks calling a DQ but it's part of the job. It should be: If I am 100% sure, I make the call 100% of the time. If I am 99% sure I don't make the call. I saw a several bent fingers that looked to have been in the trigger guard during reloading and moving this weekend where I was not in a good enough position to be 100% sure so I left it alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Wow...never thought something like this would be a discussion. The hand was swept with a loaded gun, someone out there really thinks there is grey here? Much less based on the shooters attitude? Saw a man in another sport put a 45lc through his left hand, in n.y. long ago. Was not pretty. If you think there is grey here, please never r.o. me......I'd rather have the d.q. I earned thank you. The gun doesn't need to be loaded, it is still a DQ with a unloaded gun. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted September 11, 2012 Author Share Posted September 11, 2012 The gun doesn't need to be loaded, it is still a DQ with a unloaded gun. Mike 10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). Yep the course of fire starts at Make Ready. It is a good idea to never sweep yourself but for sure not after make ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) I am aware the gun does not need to be loaded...but in the case specified, I believe it was. I was addressing the stated topic....trying not to go off on a tangent or more rule chasing. Edited September 13, 2012 by whitedog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I have noticed at the local Level 1 matches that the rules are not applied as they should be. Over the last month at 3 different shoots I have seen and questioned shooters getting by with violation of safety rules that are black and white. At a local match last weekend a shooter comes to the line is given the command to make ready. Shooter puts magazine in gun racks a round into he barrel and holsters the gun. He did not apply the safety. The RO steps up and tells him to put the safety on. I questioned the ROs action and was told it was the first stage and he just did not want to DQ the shooter on the first stage. As it turned out the shooter DQed himself on the 3rd target as he shot it when he was past it breaking the 180. Another instance a shooter dropped his loaded gun on the draw and trapped it against his lower leg and the RO let him continue. I questioned that call as well and was told he wanted to give the shooter a break. If matches are being run this way why do we have a rule book ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 I guess the reason is to not run off a new shooter. I guess I am coming to the conclusion that if I see it 100% I am going to call it. If they don't come back they don't come back. Hopefully we can make sure the new people know the rules or at least the ones that will get them a DQ before they start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 None of the instances I menioned involved new shooters. They have all been around the block a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 DQ's......... Not fun to issue and nobody wants to be thought of as a hard ass. But if we let things slide nobody learns anything and somebody may get hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 None of the instances I menioned involved new shooters. They have all been around the block a few times. It sure sucks to DQ someone but it would suck worse to have them shoot themself or someone else by being careless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 What Matt described in his original post is clearly a DQ. Let me ask a question for the RO's. If a shooter makes ready and has holstered his weapon and then reaches around the bottom of his holster with his hand and pulls up his holster and belt. Has he committed a DQ offense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 What Matt described in his original post is clearly a DQ. Let me ask a question for the RO's. If a shooter makes ready and has holstered his weapon and then reaches around the bottom of his holster with his hand and pulls up his holster and belt. Has he committed a DQ offense? No. There is an NROI ruling addressing this specifically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 What Matt described in his original post is clearly a DQ. Let me ask a question for the RO's. If a shooter makes ready and has holstered his weapon and then reaches around the bottom of his holster with his hand and pulls up his holster and belt. Has he committed a DQ offense? No. There is an NROI ruling addressing this specifically. Scott is correct. This has been discussed a number of times in other threads. Instead of showing you those, I'll just link you to the NROI Ruling: http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=46 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now