Lee Watne Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Why arn't people excited about this? Change a barrel and make major in an AR-15! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 From what I have read it's a little more than a barrel change. But mags seems to be the biggest problem how. I for one plan on having one built next year if the mag issue is cleared up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Watne Posted August 13, 2004 Author Share Posted August 13, 2004 The bolt needs to be relieved too, but that can't be a big problem. I had heard that you could use 223 mags. There was also the rumor that there were problems with blowing primers. Have you heard anything about that? The thirty Remington uses large rifle primers. It seems that it would be easy to produce some cases for small rifle primers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 There are a few people who have 6.8spc uppers on this forum (Zak Smith is one) and have posted about them - use the search engine. Regular AR mags will only hold about 5rnds. Modified mags from PRI will hold 15-20rnds depending on configuaration. MSTN modified mags come in 15 and 25rnd capacity. 6.8 SPC FAQ that Zak wrote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 If you go w/ a 130 match bullet, you can make major w/o undue pressure plus better down range balistic's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Hey Benny, Are you making or have plans to make any 6.8 rifles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Why arn't people excited about this? Change a barrel and make major in an AR-15! Not really that simple...yet. Two things to consider. First, make sure that you are getting a bolt that has its breech face actually cut for the 6.8. SOME folks are making "6.8 Uppers" and using a 7.62x39 bolt. Not a happy combination, if you like to maintain your vision (i.e. major gas leaks and prone to detonation problems). Second are the magazines. You will need to change the mag tubes in order to make it worthwhile to shoot in IPSC. Zak's doing a ton of ballistic testing (as well as Sierra...I believe) and the results have been very encouraging. What's slowed the "excitement" is availability of components (brass, etc.), known reloading data that's consistent, reliable & safe and last, availability of mags (< 35 days to that problem going away). Hope that helps. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 I'm interested in it. But I personnaly haven't dived-in because: IMHO, it's still in an ebryonic state. ...- No widely available mags. ...- No widely available and cheap brass and factory ammo. ......$.57 a round for SPC vs. $.10 a round for .223 (Wolf) ...- No widely available reloading data. ...- etc.... I haven't seen anybody post about making major with a decently sized AR... or even with a ultra-long AR. Remington's Express rounds makes 322 PF out of a 24" fixture. The heck if a 20" gas AR is gonna make major with those rounds. That means you would HAVE to reload. Processing rifle brass is such a HUGE chore. To me (at my level) it's just not ready for prime time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Follow the link to my FAQ and Load Data pages for current details. http://www.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/6.8SPC/faq.php http://www.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/6.8SPC/loads.php I don't know if we can push this to Major with currently-available commercial powders. I really need a pressure barrel to get that kind of data. Now I have to rely on primer condition and computer modeling with QuickLoad. The proprietary powders used by Remington, and some other non-canister powders, allegedly can push the 115gr to nearly 2800fps from an 18" barrel. This is second-hand info. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Couple more notes. The availability of mags seems to be limited by PRI's ability to produce runs of them. I have 6: 3 18's and 3 25's. (The 25's might hold 28, haven't actually tested them for capacity). Mag rebuild kits - just like Armalite's AR10 kits - are available in some limited numbers now. You guys who are complaining about ammo price are on crack. The price of new 6.8SPC will be about the same as Black Hills 308, or any other caliber that hasn't been in a military pipeline for 30+ years. Get yourself a Giraud power case trimmer and set your 650 or 1050 to work. That's what they're for. How many of you buy new factory 38Super or 9x23? -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRUBL Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Anyone interested in the 6.8 SPC may want to talk to Bill Alexander at Alexander Arms, he has been developing an interesting little cartridge in 6.5 that should make major with ease (and fit the AR15 platform).....I have heard that Remington kinda pulled away from the 6.8 SPC (from my contacts in the industry), and that the military is not really pursuing that round anymore. Barret is not really doing to much with it anymore and Stoner as well (NOTE!!!: all rumor at this point)......BUT.......if this is all true, it may be a dead cartridge before it really gets out of the gate. I always thought it kinda funny that Remington got into this in the first place....I mean they used to be real big at doing the military development.....but not as much in recent years....more commercial. I suspected that it was sort of a 'pet' project of someone in development and I guess I wasn't too far off on that speculation. But like I said......do not take this all for gospel......"your mileage may vary"......GREATLY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 You guys who are complaining about ammo price are on crack. The price of new 6.8SPC will be about the same as Black Hills 308, or any other caliber that hasn't been in a military pipeline for 30+ years. Get yourself a Giraud power case trimmer and set your 650 or 1050 to work. That's what they're for. How many of you buy new factory 38Super or 9x23? Zak - I'm with you. Once the reloading data is more concrete, I'll probably jump in. Heck, if nothing else it's another rifle! Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 I've secured a cache of the now-discontinued 100gr Barnes X, which happen to shoot decent in my upper. That stout little bullet should make a good deer load in this rifle. As for history, I've heard that a SOF MSG and some small companies that supported the idea developed 6.8, at $0 to the taxpayer. In that sense, it was a pet project. But right now Remington is running ammo and it should be in distributors by the end of this month or early next month (source: a friend who called a contact at Remington LE, and a separate source who's been building 6.8SPC barrels for a year). LE has allegedly shown a lot of interest, and there's undenyable interest on the "forums." All people have to do to ensure continued existence of 6.8SPC is to tell Remington it's wanted by buying lots of ammo. If the military ends up not using 6.8 in any numbers - I'm sure some will get in the "back door" to people who really need them - it will be because of the Colt/FN/HK's who want to sell a $billions project. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 You guys who are complaining about ammo price are on crack. The price of new 6.8SPC will be about the same as Black Hills 308, or any other caliber that hasn't been in a military pipeline for 30+ years. Get yourself a Giraud power case trimmer and set your 650 or 1050 to work. That's what they're for. How many of you buy new factory 38Super or 9x23?-z The cheapest .308 Black Hills @ Midway is $13.85/box of 20. $13.85 x 50 = $692.50 for a thousand rounds. I personally don't want to spend (or maybe even afford) over (w/ s/h) $700.00 for a thousand rounds. You and Rich probably could. But not me. And sure you can get Australian or whatever .308 surplus at ~$200-250 a 1000, but I REALLY doubt that 6.8 SPC is going to be a main battle/assault rifle round on the scale of .308 or .223. Sure there are enthusiasts for it. But enthusiasts are just a drop in the bucket. Midway is actually advertising the Remington 6.8 SPC as "coming soon". They have it at $115.90(200 rounds) x 5 = $579.50 a thousand. But of course that Remington round won't make major in a normal AR. And it's still hella expensive to me. And as far as .38 Super or 9x23... I don't think that's a good analogy. You should be asking how many of us buy factory .223 and .308. Reloading for pistol is a snap. Rifle is just a big pain in the ass without already processed brass. If Scharch started offering 6.8 SPC 100% proccessed at a reasonable price, then hell I'm there! The Giraud and Gracie is another $250-$350. And I probably should have one of those puppies. Anyways to me it's all a matter of $ and time. Right now... TO ME 6.8 SPC costs too much money to run and more time than I want to spend. Of course there are those who can afford it and give the time that it needs. With my resources (i.e. no special hook-ups with the right people, no access to super secret and rare powder), if I got a 6.8 SPC upper... it would be nothing more than a more expensive to shoot and STILL MINOR scoring rifle. My .223 can do the same thing cheaper and heck it shoots flatter. For the normal shooter looking to shoot major, 6.8 SPC isn't good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 You and Rich probably could. But not me. I don't think that it's what Zak meant. I think what he's saying (Zak step in if I'm wrong) is that .38 Super, is "cheap" to load only because components are available. 6.8 is still in its infancy. However, if someone wants to get invested in it, it will be a little pricey, but comparatively at least as expensive as .38 Super/Supercomp when it started years and years ago. I'm holding out for components and more importantly load data. You get me load data and around 3-4 powder and bullet combinations that'll make major (with acceptable accuracy since my AR is shooting .25-.50 MOA...got lucky) and I'll probably switch. Points are huge! Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 My point about reloading was supposed to be this: We shoot IPSC. Most of us already load ammo that either is not produced by anyone commercially (e.g. long-loaded .40SW, or full-power 38Super) or would be way to expensive to buy commercially new (e.g. 9x23). And we do it in guns that are generally in the $1 - $3k range. Add in MOR and we're already shooting wierd calibers like 6XC. We're not afraid of carefully tuning systems to get them to work well. Take that as a starting point and we're almost the ideal population to shoot a new AR15 caliber that would offer an advantage. In my opinion, 6.8 isn't quite ready for IPSC consumption yet, because of the powder and PF issue. I believe both will be solved in the next 6 months. For any other application were PF is not an issue, it's good to go now. By the way, the Giraud case trimmer pays off in the first 500 rounds of rifle loaded, just in terms of time savings doing match-quality brass prep. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokarev Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Any updates? Any stabilization issues with heavier bullets at the lower velocities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 The problem won't be so much stabilization as powder volume. A 140gr bullet is going to take up a LOT of volume. Hopefully PaulE will chime in-- it sounds like the 115gr will eventually make Major from a 20" barrel. Our handloads to date with currently available powders are around 2625 - 2660fps from an 18". -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted April 3, 2005 Share Posted April 3, 2005 Zak, What's the good word on load prospects? I've got a couple of lowers that need uppers. (There really are some benefits to being in the military...like new AR's in California...for when I go home...don't worry...frames too). I want to build a 16" rifle for plinkin' and the occasional match. Heck, if it works/feels right, I'd use it for a major match. If I could get 1-<1 MOA accuracy with 6.8 that'd be awesome! Hope there's some good news! Take care, SPC Richard A. White C-Co, 232nd Med Bn 3rd PLT (Wolverines!) Fort Sam Houston, TX (Home of the Combat Medic! Hooah!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted April 3, 2005 Share Posted April 3, 2005 Major is looking unlikely in anything shorter than a 20". Paul E might have some better data. 1MOA or better is easy to accomplish, though. Lots of load data is available, on my web page, Hodgdon & IMR, March/April Rifle Shooter magazine, etc. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted April 4, 2005 Share Posted April 4, 2005 I expect we will see a few 6.8s at the USPSA 3 Gun Nats. I hope they chrono them! While I think the 6.8 is interesting, I don't see it knocking the .223 off its roost: cost, decreased mag capacity and the irrelevance of major pf with the proliferation of steel rifle targets being the biggest drawbacks. At least that was my experience with my foray into major pf with the .260 Rem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paule Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 The lack of "discriminating" targets at the longer distances seems to be the biggest impediment to Major rifles competing heads up with minor one. The He-Man/Heavy Metal division puts the .308's back in the game, but the alteratives that work in AR15 form factors are not going to thrive if the current trends continue. There is just no reason to shoot a bigger cartridge when the points are the same. The 6.8 SPC will make major with a 20" barrel. The 6.5 Grendel can easily do it in an 18". In a typical match, they would both lose the hoser stages due to limited mag capacity (25 rd currently for either). Both would do best on long stages on days where the wind blew hard, but would have no advantage on calm days. Possibly the reverse as recoil is somewhat more. It would be interesting to see what the reaction would be to long range (beyond 100 yards) targets that were easier to "score on" with major calibers. A flasher that would "flash" on any major hit, but would not flash from a marginal minor rifle hit. Ideally, hits would be cumulative. Maybe a flash activator where two or three marginal minor hits, one major hit anywhere on target, or a single minor hit in the perfect spot would set it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 (edited) Okay, so the new provisional USPSA Multi-Gun rules are out and Major is back in play assuming people design stages to take into account major/minor scoring. We are another several months down the road since the last post in this thread. After playing in the wind last weekend trying to activate flashers out past 300 with a .223 the thought of something with a bit more pop floated back up to the surface. Then I won an upper receiver off the prize table and figure I need to build "something" up on it. Who is making 20" barrels? Comps? DPMS and other seem to have become mired in the 16" world. Care to give us an update Zak? PaulE? Anyone else? Edited August 4, 2005 by kimel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 MSTN QC comp in 6.8. Various sources for 20" barrels. Not sure if that will make Major-- Paul? As a side note, I have no problem activating flashers or pushing LaRues over at 400 with 75gr 223. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 A quick search reveals also that RCBS, Lee, Redding and Hornady now have 6.8 dies in their regular production line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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