r o mistake

[sperman]

Nope, I don't really see an issue with that. We ended up in a 4" wide hallway when the shooter engaged his last target and decided to move back.

There wasn't anywhere for me to go.

Based on everything you've described, it sounds like the shooter should have been offered a re-shoot.

[BSeevers]

Last Sunday a new shooter runs a long field course ending down a deep hallway. She looks over the other side of the stage and decides that she is gonna retreat 8 yds up hallway and 6 over to shoot a popper she left standing. Not worth it at all of course. We all about had a heart attack because we could never believe somebody would run back up that specific stage. It happens.

A couple years ago I was shooting one of those 24 rd speed run down a hallway type stage very fast. I missed a target on right put on brakes and backpedaled two steps and had the RO around a half step or so in front of me. I was acquiring the target with my eyes and gun was downrange and of course did not swing the gun right until he pooped and backed up. I let him know that he slowed me down or interfered with my run and I believe that I should reshoot. He agreed. His eyes were very big when it happened.

Edited September 6, 2012 by BSeevers

[Nik Habicht]

The stage was in a small bay, 32 rd and had a high HF. The bay was long and narrow and was pretty much a front to back run. One shooter, at the end, in a narrow hallway, decided he was going to come back halfway through the stage to try and pick up what he had called as a mike. (never mind that we all know if you are going to take 2-3 seconds to run back to make up a shot, no way is that going to help your score) He yelled something and started hauling ass. He got even with me and the scorekeeper and decided to quit. He wanted a reshoot for interference but the RM said no. I was trying to back up but really had no place to go.

Sounds like a reshoot to me. He probably should have arb'd that one.

I don't know Kyle -- the way the rule reads is it's RO discretion. I don't know that an arb committee can order a reshoot in that instance......

[High Lord Gomer]

It didn't make it to an arb committee but the RM was called when a shooter requested a reshoot for RO interference that wasn't offered by the RO the one time I went to the nationals. He was granted the reshoot.

Said shooter realized he had screwed up the stage (multiple misses if I recall correctly). When he finished near the middle of the COF he stopped and pulled the mag most of the way out of the pistol. The RO got close and said IYAFULASC. At this point he slammed the mag back in and ran backward to the far left corner of the shooting area to "look at a target he might have missed", leaving the RO downrange. The RO yelled something like, "Hey, get back here!" He claimed that interfered with his run. This was several seconds after he had quit shooting and started to unload. No GM is going to decide 5 seconds later to go make up a target. He waited till after all the targets were scored before requesting a reshoot for interference.

Funny thing was he tried the same thing 3 or 4 stages later and the RO merely backed up and waited for him to quit looking like a dork before she again said IYAFULASC.

That has been the only obvious case of cheating that I have seen and I still get pissed when I think about it.

Edited September 6, 2012 by High Lord Gomer

[Skydiver]

Off with his head!

[remoandiris]

It didn't make it to an arb committee but the RM was called when a shooter requested a reshoot for RO interference that wasn't offered by the RO the one time I went to the nationals. He was granted the reshoot.

Said shooter realized he had screwed up the stage (multiple misses if I recall correctly). When he finished near the middle of the COF he stopped and pulled the mag most of the way out of the pistol. The RO got close and said IYAFULASC. At this point he slammed the mag back in and ran backward to the far left corner of the shooting area to "look at a target he might have missed", leaving the RO downrange. The RO yelled something like, "Hey, get back here!" He claimed that interfered with his run. This was several seconds after he had quit shooting and started to unload. No GM is going to decide 5 seconds later to go make up a target. He waited till after all the targets were scored before requesting a reshoot for interference.

Funny thing was he tried the same thing 3 or 4 stages later and the RO merely backed up and waited for him to quit looking like a dork before she again said IYAFULASC.

That has been the only obvious case of cheating that I have seen and I still get pissed when I think about it.

He worked the rules to his advantage. Was it sportsmanlike to do? Given the scenario, absolutely not.

[theycallmeingot]

It didn't make it to an arb committee but the RM was called when a shooter requested a reshoot for RO interference that wasn't offered by the RO the one time I went to the nationals. He was granted the reshoot.

Said shooter realized he had screwed up the stage (multiple misses if I recall correctly). When he finished near the middle of the COF he stopped and pulled the mag most of the way out of the pistol. The RO got close and said IYAFULASC. At this point he slammed the mag back in and ran backward to the far left corner of the shooting area to "look at a target he might have missed", leaving the RO downrange. The RO yelled something like, "Hey, get back here!" He claimed that interfered with his run. This was several seconds after he had quit shooting and started to unload. No GM is going to decide 5 seconds later to go make up a target. He waited till after all the targets were scored before requesting a reshoot for interference.

Funny thing was he tried the same thing 3 or 4 stages later and the RO merely backed up and waited for him to quit looking like a dork before she again said IYAFULASC.

That has been the only obvious case of cheating that I have seen and I still get pissed when I think about it.

He worked the rules to his advantage. Was it sportsmanlike to do? Given the scenario, absolutely not.

i think you're trying to make a distinction between cheating, and abusing the rules we have in place to gain an advantage. i don't think that distinction has to be made. cheating is cheating.

[Poppa Bear]

It didn't make it to an arb committee but the RM was called when a shooter requested a reshoot for RO interference that wasn't offered by the RO the one time I went to the nationals. He was granted the reshoot.

Said shooter realized he had screwed up the stage (multiple misses if I recall correctly). When he finished near the middle of the COF he stopped and pulled the mag most of the way out of the pistol. The RO got close and said IYAFULASC. At this point he slammed the mag back in and ran backward to the far left corner of the shooting area to "look at a target he might have missed", leaving the RO downrange. The RO yelled something like, "Hey, get back here!" He claimed that interfered with his run. This was several seconds after he had quit shooting and started to unload. No GM is going to decide 5 seconds later to go make up a target. He waited till after all the targets were scored before requesting a reshoot for interference.

Funny thing was he tried the same thing 3 or 4 stages later and the RO merely backed up and waited for him to quit looking like a dork before she again said IYAFULASC.

That has been the only obvious case of cheating that I have seen and I still get pissed when I think about it.

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another

external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of

fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course

of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing

either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the

event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such

interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

.

Should not have been offered a reshoot.

[High Lord Gomer]

He was not offered a reshoot...he claimed he should have been offered one because the RO interfered.

[Poppa Bear]

He was not offered it but he did not request it until the stage was scored. Were I the RM, if I was told he waited until it was scored before he requested the reshoot this is what I would have used to deny it.

[BillD]

OK, if we forget about the points and score, which I was told to do, why would a guy want a reshoot in this situation?

Ya screwed the pooch on this stage, you did it to yourself by taking all kinds of time to go back and make up a shot, but you want to shoot it again to make it better because you got an RO pinned in an impossible to get out of situation. Why should one get a reshoot (at the RO's discretion) to fix a problem the shooter caused?

And I just don't believe a shooter can have free rein over a COF and expect an RO to be in exactly the right position for every possible movement by the shooter.

And I have to wonder how many people may do this to get the interference call.....

Splain it to me Lucy....

[Poppa Bear]

It could easily come back and bite them. Shooter tries to force a reshoot by running back quickly. RO runs back just as quick so the shooter knows he will not get the RO out of position so they stop. Now we go into IYAFUSC. Unknown to everyone is that the timer took a knock as the RO reversed course quickly so instead of reading 20.xx seconds it now reads 26.xx. It is still a valid time for the stage so it does not stand out. Now the shooter is stuck with a slower time that cannot be disputed.

[Skydiver]

And I just don't believe a shooter can have free rein over a COF and expect an RO to be in exactly the right position for every possible movement by the shooter.

:

Splain it to me Lucy....

Because of the general principle:

8. Practical competition is free-style. In essence, the competitive problem is posed in general and the participant is permitted the freedom to solve it in the manner he considers best within the limitations of the competitive situation as provided.

And rule:

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permit-ted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

Just a few months ago, a course designer had setup a course design where the start position was downrange and there were a series of shooting positions to get to while retreating. The designer assumed that the RO would have enough time to start retreating before the shooter started moving because of the way the targets were laid out and the way the shooter would sucked into a port or position before being able to extract themselves from it again no matter what the shooting order was at that shooting position.

At the start signal, I opted to keep my gun holstered, turn around and sprint to the rear most position and then work my way forward to make reloads easier and less awkward. Additionally, I could get my gun up and aimed even before entering each shooting position (which would have been very difficult and awkward had I been retreating). I felt that I was playing to my strengths. I may have doubled the distance covered, but I felt like I was making more efficient use of the time as I was working my way forward.

Are you saying that I needed to shoot the stage retreating to prevent the possibility of leaving the RO in the dust?

To be fair, I did warn the RO (who also was the stage designer) of my game plan because I didn't want to leave him flat footed assuming I was going to shoot the stage like everybody else did.

[aztecdriver]

OK, if we forget about the points and score, which I was told to do, why would a guy want a reshoot in this situation?

Ya screwed the pooch on this stage, you did it to yourself by taking all kinds of time to go back and make up a shot, but you want to shoot it again to make it better because you got an RO pinned in an impossible to get out of situation. Why should one get a reshoot (at the RO's discretion) to fix a problem the shooter caused?

And I just don't believe a shooter can have free rein over a COF and expect an RO to be in exactly the right position for every possible movement by the shooter.

And I have to wonder how many people may do this to get the interference call.....

Splain it to me Lucy....

Bill,

Being that I was the one that told you that the "advantage gained" by whatever the shooter does is pointless in running the COF, not that score doesn't matter, and you seem to keep wanting to harp on this point.... Let me be plain.

The rules state that the competitor has complete freedom within the bounds of the WSB and the rulebook to complete the competitive problem. It doesn't say anywhere that they have to do it smartly. There could be all kinds of reasons someone might want to come back to the start position, based on design. There is no way to debate that.

The fact of the matter is, 1.1.5 is clear - freestyle. You keep thinking that there is no way to do it practically, so you are advocating limiting the shooter so they can't go back. I'm saying BS. Show me the rule that gives you the authority to do so. I don't need to explain it to you, outside of the rules I've shown you. It's freestyle, as the RO - deal with it. Figure out what you are going to do to get out of the way. If you are not ready, and you have to eat giving reshoots, so be it. Those are the rules of the game.

Edited September 6, 2012 by aztecdriver

[aztecdriver]

It didn't make it to an arb committee but the RM was called when a shooter requested a reshoot for RO interference that wasn't offered by the RO the one time I went to the nationals. He was granted the reshoot.

Said shooter realized he had screwed up the stage (multiple misses if I recall correctly). When he finished near the middle of the COF he stopped and pulled the mag most of the way out of the pistol. The RO got close and said IYAFULASC. At this point he slammed the mag back in and ran backward to the far left corner of the shooting area to "look at a target he might have missed", leaving the RO downrange. The RO yelled something like, "Hey, get back here!" He claimed that interfered with his run. This was several seconds after he had quit shooting and started to unload. No GM is going to decide 5 seconds later to go make up a target. He waited till after all the targets were scored before requesting a reshoot for interference.

Funny thing was he tried the same thing 3 or 4 stages later and the RO merely backed up and waited for him to quit looking like a dork before she again said IYAFULASC.

That has been the only obvious case of cheating that I have seen and I still get pissed when I think about it.

He worked the rules to his advantage. Was it sportsmanlike to do? Given the scenario, absolutely not.

Keep believing that. I've pointed out someone else that walks down range out of the free fire zone up to the targets trying to get the RO to do the same thing to invite a stop call.

If this is attempted with me, I'll be preparing my arbitration testimony that I know is coming after the 10.6.1

[remoandiris]

He worked the rules to his advantage. Was it sportsmanlike to do? Given the scenario, absolutely not.

Keep believing that. I've pointed out someone else that walks down range out of the free fire zone up to the targets trying to get the RO to do the same thing to invite a stop call.

If this is attempted with me, I'll be preparing my arbitration testimony that I know is coming after the 10.6.1

I will keep believeing that. The shooter worked the rules to his advantage. That is a fact. It was not sportsmanlike. Or is it easier to understand if I say it was unsportsmanlike?

[aztecdriver]

He worked the rules to his advantage. Was it sportsmanlike to do? Given the scenario, absolutely not.

Keep believing that. I've pointed out someone else that walks down range out of the free fire zone up to the targets trying to get the RO to do the same thing to invite a stop call.

If this is attempted with me, I'll be preparing my arbitration testimony that I know is coming after the 10.6.1

I will keep believeing that. The shooter worked the rules to his advantage. That is a fact. It was not sportsmanlike. Or is it easier to understand if I say it was unsportsmanlike?

Bill,

No, there is a difference between forcing a range officer to maintain control over his range for legitimate reasons rather attempting to garner a reshoot. In the situation Gomer mentions - it's marginal - we all know what he was attempting to do - but, it's plausible, and somewhat deniable. There is no remedy for stupid, so if a GM is willing to commit to and fire a shot 5 seconds after he's complete - so be it. We all know he would not have shot, he just knew he tanked the course and tried a last ditch hitch. The fix for this is to not stop him - and RO education.

On the other hand - if I have the guy that's going to walk 15 yards past the downrange fault line to look at his target with his gun in his hand and claim he was going to run back to the fault line to engage his miss if he found one, that's unsportsmanlike. It's clear what he's trying to do. I'm sending him home if he tries that with me. CRO can overturn. RM can overturn, Arb committee can overturn, but I'm calling it for what it is -an attempt to gain a reshoot when one legitimately isn't warranted - and using the need for the rules focused on safety to create a procedural technicality to gain said reshoot - and that is unsportsmanlike.

[Skydiver]

The fact of the matter is, 1.1.5 is clear - freestyle. You keep thinking that there is no way to do it practically, so you are advocating limiting the shooter so they can't go back. I'm saying BS. Show me the rule that gives you the authority to do so. I don't need to explain it to you, outside of the rules I've shown you. It's freestyle, as the RO - deal with it. Figure out what you are going to do to get out of the way. If you are not ready, and you have to eat giving reshoots, so be it. Those are the rules of the game.

There is no rule that give the RO authority to prevent a shooter from going back. On the other hand, there is a rule that gives the stage designer of a level I course the authority from preventing a shooter from going back to an array:

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

Just like the common level I WSB stipulations where "PP1 must be be shot to activate DT1. DT1 may not be engaged prior to activation.", a Level I WSB has enough latitude to say something like "T1-T4 may not be re-engaged after leaving the shooting area." Rule 10.2.9 supports such wording for Level I:

10.2.9 A competitor who leaves a shooting location may return and shoot again from the same location provided they do so safely. However, written stage briefings for Classifiers, Standard Exercises and Level I matches may prohibit such actions, in which case one procedural penalty per shot fired will apply.

Note though, that all it imposes in a procedural, not a DQ.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Skydiver

[JThompson]

I wasn't worrying about anyone retreating on me, because who shoots a COF, winds up at the end of the thing and then decides they want to run 15' uprange? I ran 300 shooters through that COF, only one decided to haul ass uprange.

Like this?

I think I saw you make that move at A5.

[remoandiris]

He worked the rules to his advantage. Was it sportsmanlike to do? Given the scenario, absolutely not.

Keep believing that. I've pointed out someone else that walks down range out of the free fire zone up to the targets trying to get the RO to do the same thing to invite a stop call.

If this is attempted with me, I'll be preparing my arbitration testimony that I know is coming after the 10.6.1

I will keep believeing that. The shooter worked the rules to his advantage. That is a fact. It was not sportsmanlike. Or is it easier to understand if I say it was unsportsmanlike?

Bill,

No, there is a difference between forcing a range officer to maintain control over his range for legitimate reasons rather attempting to garner a reshoot. In the situation Gomer mentions - it's marginal - we all know what he was attempting to do - but, it's plausible, and somewhat deniable. There is no remedy for stupid, so if a GM is willing to commit to and fire a shot 5 seconds after he's complete - so be it. We all know he would not have shot, he just knew he tanked the course and tried a last ditch hitch. The fix for this is to not stop him - and RO education.

On the other hand - if I have the guy that's going to walk 15 yards past the downrange fault line to look at his target with his gun in his hand and claim he was going to run back to the fault line to engage his miss if he found one, that's unsportsmanlike. It's clear what he's trying to do. I'm sending him home if he tries that with me. CRO can overturn. RM can overturn, Arb committee can overturn, but I'm calling it for what it is -an attempt to gain a reshoot when one legitimately isn't warranted - and using the need for the rules focused on safety to create a procedural technicality to gain said reshoot - and that is unsportsmanlike.

I really think you and I are in agreement. In Gomer's scenario the shooter behaved like an asshat. He tried to abuse the rules to get a reshoot on a stage he totally dorked up.

[Mitch Harrington]

If all of you will take HALF the amount of time you have spent arguing in this thread (and other threads) and apply it towards dry-firing or live-fire practice, you will all move up one class in your given division. Just an observation.

[kevin c]

Oh, absolutely no doubt about that.

Still, it can be useful for those who wish to be better RO's. In general, these threads have more wheat than chaff.

[Mitch Harrington]

Oh, absolutely no doubt about that.

Still, it can be useful for those who wish to be better RO's. In general, these threads have more wheat than chaff.

I couldn't agree more. On both accounts.

[remoandiris]

If all of you will take HALF the amount of time you have spent arguing in this thread (and other threads) and apply it towards dry-firing or live-fire practice, you will all move up one class in your given division. Just an observation.

Dry-fire and live-fire means I have to get off the love seat!!!

[JThompson]

If all of you will take HALF the amount of time you have spent arguing in this thread (and other threads) and apply it towards dry-firing or live-fire practice, you will all move up one class in your given division. Just an observation.

Nah, already as high as I can go, but it might get me back shooting at the GM level. I think with what little shooting I've been doing I'm probably closer to A class now.

JT