BDH Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 At A3 we had a call on our stage that was made by the RO, and backed up by the CRO. The competitor politely disagreed with us, but 'did not want to make a big deal out of it'. We suggested that we call the RM. Still, he somewhat resisted, but finally said 'okay, let's have the RM take a look'. The RM shows up and makes a different call than both of us. The competitor gets a re-shoot, and he burned down that stage (and I mean, he nailed it). He probably took this stage from a disaster to possible stage win (I haven't looked at stage results to see for sure). What really surprised me was that there was 'hesitation' to escalate. The rulebook is clear on this..... if the competitor disagrees with the call by the RO, he can appeal to the CRO..... if the competitor disagrees with that call, they can appeal to the RM..... and for most things, they can appeal to the ARB committee. Later, I spoke with one of the other members of the squad and insisted to him that it was the right thing to do to call the RM. He also said 'that we did not want to cause trouble'. Just to set the record straight, I am NOT looking for everyone to chase down the RM on every call, or to ARB everything, but if you truly believe that you are in the right, you should exercise your options..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 BDH, Ya done good, and I remain proud of you for assisting the competitor to understand his rights but, even more importantly, for not merely dismissing his protests, despite them being reluctant. Having served on the Arbitration Committee at the last two World Shoots, I can tell you that some of the appeals we've received were described by others as being "frivolous ", however each competitor is entitled to his "day in Court", and we consider all appeals carefully, seriously and on it's merits. If the competitor is aggrieved enough to challenge a call, it doesn't matter how far he wants to take it under the rules, we must not only be fair & impartial, we must also be seen to be fair & impartial. And any RO who says (or thinks) "I'm right, you're wrong, end of story" is due for retirement. Keep up the great work, and we'll get you room with a view at "The Centre". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 BDH, to paraphrase Tom Cruise in a bad movie: "You can RO me anytime!" Are you ever grumpy at a match? I sure haven't seen it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted August 9, 2004 Author Share Posted August 9, 2004 BDH,to paraphrase Tom Cruise in a bad movie: "You can RO me anytime!" Are you ever grumpy at a match? I sure haven't seen it..... Nik, really appreciate the comments but what I am trying to figure out (and maybe I wasn't clear), is this...... Do YOU (that means all of you) hesitate to call the RM on calls that you do not agree with?? If so, why?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 Do YOU (that means all of you) hesitate to call the RM on calls that you do not agree with?? If so, why?? Hell, no! I never hesitate. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 I wouldn't hesitate to call the RM --- AAMOF, I did at the Buckeye, when Kyle and Jesse told me I had to shoot from the shaky bridge. Usually my situations don't go that far though --- I might ask for another look at a target, or for an overlay, if the hole in the target looks bigger than a standard 9 hole. Usually though, the discussion resolves things. I had one RO recently at a big match who groaned when I requested an overlay --- and then was surprised that I didn't want to take it further when he upheld his Alpha-Mike call. It was simple for me though, once I saw the overlay on the target; well everything was simple except I still don't know how I missed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 Do YOU (that means all of you) hesitate to call the RM on calls that you do not agree with?? If so, why?? Why the hell do you think I'm an inmate at "The Centre", huh? It was when people saw me running around in circles yelling "Where's Vinny" that got me committed in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 Yes, the one chance I had to date I did hessitate and acctually droped the whole thing. Still to new to the game to make waves at that stage.... Here is what happend: At a Level 4 shoot, CoF down a beach with tiny dunes. Targets placed in straight line on top of dunes 90 deg to back berm with PT's on the uprange side. So to shoot the targets you get quite close to the 180 with a feet faster than finger senario.... You could run the CoF two ways - at the bottom of the dunes (±10m from targets) or over dunes (±0.5m from targets), on the left side of the CoF. I went high and really drilled the targets....until I hear a feint "Stop". I freeze, put on safety catch, gun pointing down range, turn my head to ask the RO "What?". He comes up the little dune (at that stage he's ±3m behind to the left ±1.5-2m lower than me) tells me to USC, HDH, etc. I comply and ask "WTH". He's says "DQ - 180" (from the position he was in....). I ask where and he points to a target and says my left foot was stepped past the target when I fired (Not the gun was pointing backwards...). The holes in the target looked like shoot at ± 60deg (little oval cut....) in the SAFE direction. I ask the CRO "WTH" and he says he didn't see it....I thus prepare to call the RM and suddenly the CRO says - "Its no use, I saw you break the 180" - wtFFFFF....... By this time the RO had the CoF patched and reset already....proof gone.... I drop the whole thing, get in the car and drive 3500km back home...... Not calling the RM or for Arb is a case of not knowing your rights - IMHO.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted August 9, 2004 Author Share Posted August 9, 2004 Dead Buff, First, the CRO HAS to call the RM in the event of a DQ, period! Second, these are usually tough to reverse because unless the RM actually witnessed the infraction, he will have to listen to both the competitors, and the range staffs account of what happened, and then make a decision. In these cases, seldom is there physical evidence left behind. If the RO/CRO were in the proper position to actually witness you breaking the 180, then it will most likely stand as the range staff should be the unbiased party (after all, it is in the competitors best interest to state that they did not break the 180). That said, they do get reversed, but usually it is because the range staff says something to the RM like "I 'think' he broke the 180" or, "I 'thought' he was standing here and swung back to get the target". In those cases where they are not 110% sure, the call should be reversed, and a re-shoot issued. Anyway, I really wasn't talking about DQ situations as the RM has to be notified anyway. What I was talking about was competitors unhappy about scoring, application of procedurals, etc. If you are not happy with the decision of the CRO, then you should feel free to ask for the RM to make a ruling. Personally, I have never been offended by the request for the RM to question my ruling (although I may not be super happy if my stage is running behind already, and I feel it is a frivolous call). It is your right, and you should exercise it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 I appologise for my thread drift above - misread (thus: did not think.... ) your post. I would call the RM if I feel it will make a diff. I'm too honest to try a pull a stunt. I have seen less experianced RO's ask for help from the RO next door (next bay) - that so far always cleared most Q's up. On rulings - get the RM is the answer they mostely get... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 At many matches, and with many CRO's a lot less professional than Troy, Big Hanna and Uncah Vinny - the CRO's put the shooter in the uncomfortable position as THEY feel they are being challenged. Anybody that is really new, or really seasoned will have reservations about causing problems. So unfortunately, this is one of the holdovers from the us vs them dark ages of USPSA/IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Yeah.. as the shooter, it's your job and responsibility to ask for the RM if you disagree with the RO's call. Treat it like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 None of the club matches I shoot at has a Range Master. You're lucky if you can identify the M.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 None of the club matches I shoot at has a Range Master. You're lucky if you can identify the M.D. The new rules (January 2004 Edition) require that an MD & RM be appointed, and this is because there are numerous rules which require the MD or RM to make decisions. Of course we also understand that smaller club matches don't need both officials, which is why we have the final sentence below: 7.3.1 Match organizers must, prior to commencement of a match, appoint a Match Director and a Range Master to carry out the duties detailed in these rules. The nominated Range Master should preferably be the most competent and experienced certified Range Official present (also see Rule 7.1.5). For Level I and II matches a single person may be appointed to be both the Match Director and the Range Master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted August 10, 2004 Author Share Posted August 10, 2004 The new rules (January 2004 Edition) require that an MD & RM be appointed, and this is because there are numerous rules which require the MD or RM to make decisions. Of course we also understand that smaller club matches don't need both officials, which is why we have the final sentence below:7.3.1 Match organizers must, prior to commencement of a match, appoint a Match Director and a Range Master to carry out the duties detailed in these rules. The nominated Range Master should preferably be the most competent and experienced certified Range Official present (also see Rule 7.1.5). For Level I and II matches a single person may be appointed to be both the Match Director and the Range Master. Oh oh..... I feel a new job coming my way...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Always the same guys that get stuck with it all..... Is it allowed to be Stats, RM, MD, RO and shooter all at the same time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dminor Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 BDH, I love to call the RM, it is why they get paid the big bucks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 pay??? - You mean the guys that do it for luv and charity and get to build and break down ranges.....sorry for the drift - I'll leave now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Oh oh..... I feel a new job coming my way...... BDH, You can get that new job only if you get those RM materials to me! But, that being said, if you feel that you, as a shooter have been aggrieved, by all means ask to speak to the RM. That is what we are there for and I, for one, never mind talking to a shooter who has a question. Arnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 I would always call a RM if there is a question. They are the best RO's. Sometimes you get a new unexperienced RO who might be mistake. Don't give them Sh-- just ask for a RM. The RM is always a person who has seen it all, well 99.9% of it. They don't mind showing up and keep a objective cool head. That's why they are there. Just ask Frank. He was called to our squad on practically every stage at the BB. It wasn't me though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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